Skip to main content

Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the Religion Forum discussion titled "Called - Several Takes On The Word" begun by my Christian Friend, GB, he refers us to the Scripture passage found in Romans 8:28-30, "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.  For those whom He foreknew -- He also predestined to become conformed  to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called;  and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."

GB writes, "The word Called and Predestined appear above.  Many different denominations view the text differently.  Some Five Point Calvinists (TULIP) say that only those who God Calls or Foreknew will be saved.  And, that there are some God knows will not be saved and are appointed to destruction."

My Friend, GB, left out the most important word in that "word trinity" -- FOREKNEW.   As Vic has told us, God, in His omniscience, knew, i.e.,  foreknew, who will follow Jesus Christ in this life -- and who will deny Him until it is too late to turn from following the world.  Those who will follow Jesus Christ are predestined to eternal life in Christ.  Those who will continue to deny Him will condemn, or predestine, themselves to eternal life without Christ.  Those whom He foreknew will follow Christ -- the Holy Spirit calls.

The Calvinist teaching that, before God created the heavens and the earth -- He had already decided who will be saved and who will spend eternity in hell is inconsistent with the true nature of God.  We know that many more will continue to deny Him, i.e., the reprobate or non-believer, and condemn themselves to hell -- than those who, of their God given "free will" -- will choose to follow Christ into eternal life and spend eternity in the presence of God.  God gives all men the gift of "free will."  How a person chooses to use this gift will determine his/her own eternal destiny.

So, I cannot, from Biblical teachings, accept the Calvinist teachings of predestination -- and I cannot accept the Arminian teaching that a true believer can lose his/her salvation.  John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."  This does not  say, "Could have eternal life."  Nor does it say "Will have eternal life IF. . ."   No, it specifically, from the mouth of Jesus Christ, tells  us, ". . .he who believes has eternal life."

Jesus Christ tells us, in John 10:27-29, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to  them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.  My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

When this Scripture passage tells us that no one can snatch the believer out of God's hand -- this also includes the believer himself/herself.  No one means no one, not even the believer.  This is an argument that those who deny the teaching of eternal security will raise -- that a person may not be snatched out of God's hand -- but that person can, himself/herself, choose to walk away from God.

No, this passage says NO ONE and it means NO ONE, not even the believer.  If a person chooses to deny God and follow the world  -- that person has never been a believer.  Yes, the person may have professed to believing; but, it was for an ulterior motive other than salvation.  He may have Professed Christ to the world; but, he did not Confess Christ (Romans 10:9-10) in his heart leading to salvation.

How can the Bible be more clear; how can Jesus Christ be more clear?  You BELIEVE -- you HAVE eternal life.

Ephesians 1:13,  "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the Gospel of your salvation -- having also believed -- you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

Ephesians 4:30, "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

What is the day of redemption?  It is the day when your Redeemer Kinsman (Leviticus 25:25, Romans 3:24; 1 Corinthians 6:20), Jesus Christ, comes to redeem you.  In other words, He will redeem you and bring you to His home.  When will this happen?  Either when you die -- or when the Rapture occurs -- whichever is first.  Until then -- YOU, as a believer, are sealed in Him by the Holy  Spirit.

If you are sealed in Him -- you cannot leave, you cannot be snatched away, you HAVE eternal life (John 6:47) in and with Jesus Christ!

It cannot be said more clearly nor more strongly than this -- if you believe YOU HAVE eternal life in Jesus Christ.  Now, you may call this what you want; but, I call it "Once Saved, Always Saved."

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

quote:   Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

 If you see the movie " Gone with the wind", then you will already know what will happen next, who will die or who will never be hungry again.   That is why God can say, who is and who isn't going tobe saved.  The only once saved and always saved, were saved before time begin.


Hi Vic,

 

If you truly believe "The only once saved and always saved, were saved before time begin" then you are negating your comment in the other discussion when you write, "God knew the people that would be most Christ like even before this creation.  They are predestined, he already knew the ones who will carry the responsibility of the word being taught to all that will listen."


In your first statement you are confirming the Calvinist teaching of Predestination.  Yet, in your second statement you are denying Predestination while confirming God's omniscient Foreknowledge. 


Yes, God, before the Creation knew who will, of their own "free will" -- choose to follow Jesus Christ and who will deny Him.  The reason God knew this is His omniscience.  However, because God gave all men the gift of "free will" -- we all have the freedom to choose eternal life with God or eternal hell.


And, God, in His omniscient Foreknowledge knows which you and I will choose.  However, this in no way means that He predestined before Creation that you or I WOULD be saved or WOULD go to hell.   No, that is our "free will" choice.  But, He knows which you and I WILL choose.


How is this possible?  First of all, God is omniscient.  Second, in heaven, there is no time.  On earth we have the dimension of time, linear time.  In heaven there is no dimension of time.  So, today is the same as yesterday -- and the same as tomorrow.  In heaven, there is no yesterday and no tomorrow -- only today, eternally.  So, while you and I are operating in our linear time dimension -- still looking forward to tomorrow and the decisions we will make tomorrow -- for God, all of it is today.  So, He knows what you and I have done or will do -- today.  That is not Calvinistic Predestination; that is God's Foreknowledge Predestination.


Vic, I know that you are determined to disagree with everything I write; which is not a problem for me -- for it gives me more opportunities to explain God's Word.  However, just a suggestion -- give some thought to what you are writing, before you write it, so that you do not trip over your own feet.


God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,


Bill

Hi Vic,

 

You tell me, "And then you go on to tell me the same thing I just said, I've never disagreed with you when you were right. which is almost never."

 

Okay, for the sake of discussion -- please tell me where in this discussion what I have written is wrong.  Give me an example of what I have written in error.

 

Or, are you just saying that JUST to disagree with me -- even though it has no basis in truth?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Vic, my Friend,

 

Is that all the response you can give, "No... What I said is true.....   The other part is you know I don't agree with any of your calvinist beliefs."

 

You tell me that what I write is wrong.  I ask you for even one example -- and all you can say is, "No... What I said is true....."   Yes, my Friend, that REALLY sounds convincing!!

 

Then, you declare, "I don't agree with any of your calvinist beliefs."

 

DID YOU READ any of my post?  Or do you just see my name on the post and start typing gibberish?  If you had read any of my post -- this one or any in the past -- you would KNOW that I do not agree with Calvinism's teaching of Predestination nor do I agree with Arminianism's teaching that a believer can lose his salvation.   So, obviously, I am neither Calvinist nor Arminianist.  I would say that I sit pretty much in the middle between the two. 

 

But, Vic, if you are going to jump up and down, declaring all I write to be wrong -- at least read some of it.  If you cannot show even one error to support your claim -- what does that make you?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

quote:   Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Once saved, always saved is calvinist.

Hi Vic,

 

Yes, the Calvinist do believe in eternal security, i.e., "once saved, always saved."   However, many other Christians also believe the same.  You will find that many Christians feel as I do -- and as do most in the Baptist General Convention (BGC) -- we stand in the middle between the Calvinism and the Arminianism.

 

I cannot be a Calvinist -- for I completely disagree with them on their version of Predestination -- that God chose, before the Creation who would be His elect, i.e., who will go to heaven -- and who will be His reprobate, i.e., who will go to hell.  

 

And, in the Calvinist teaching there is nothing a person can do to attain salvation.  In other words, the Calvinist do not believe that God has given mankind "free will" -- the free will to choose to follow Him or to deny Him.   I cannot buy their teaching on Predestination and "free will" -- for that  is inconsistent with the true nature of God.

 

And, I cannot buy the Arminian teaching that a person who is truly saved can lose his salvation.  This is calling Jesus Christ a liar -- for He tell us, "He who believes HAS eternal life" (John 6:47).  This does not say, "Could have eternal life IF. . ." or "Will have eternal life IF. . ."   No, He clearly says, "He who believes HAS eternal life"

 

This Arminian teaching leaves a person always having to look over his shoulder -- in fear that he will lose his salvation.   This, too, is inconsistent with the true nature of God.

 

So, no Vic -- I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian.  But, I am a conservative Christian believer.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bill,  as you are very aware not all Christians accept the once saved always saved doctrine and those that do not believe based upon various scriptures which they feel support that position.  One verse that some advocates of OSAS (once saved, always saved) use is the following:

 

Matthew 12:27-29 (NIV)
27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges.
28 But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29 "Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.

 

The line of reasoning is thus.  A Christian who is saved is baptized, by God, with God's Holy Spirit who resides along with that Christian until the day of redemption.  Therefore the only way that someone could take a persons salvation is if the person/demon/Satan was to enter into that person's body and overthrow the Holy Spirit which for this to happen they would have to be stronger and more powerful than the Holy Spirit/God. 

 

From my understanding, of those who advocate that a Christian can lose their Salvation one of the major verses that they cite is the following:

Hebrews 6:1-6 (NLT)
1 So let us stop going over the basic teachings about Christ again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don’t need to start again with the fundamental importance of repenting from evil deeds and placing our faith in God.
2 You don’t need further instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
3 And so, God willing, we will move forward to further understanding.
4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—
6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

Truly, for the Christian, as the passage indicates at first this is a teaching/discussion for the mature Christian and therefore must be considered with caution and from a greater depth in knowledge of God's word. 

 

I will for now leave my comments to the above and to say one additional thing, regarding the belief that salvation can be lost.  Those who advocate this doctrine are not doing so with an external source in mind.  They are not saying that another person or demon can effect a person's standing with Christ but they are saying it reflects and addresses the individual Christian themselves making the decision to renounce Christ and turn their back (and heart) upon Christ. 

 

Arguments and dialog to dispute this then, in my opinion, should be addressed to the individual Christian's acts themselves rather than those that may come from an external source such as Satan, demons, or the like. 

 

And no problem starting the new thread/subject for it actually is different than that which I started referring to "called".  and the foreknowledge of God.  That discussion or topic can be reduced to generalities in deciding whether or not predestination refers and addresses each specific Christian or is it the act of Salvation that was predestined (pre-determined) that who-so-ever accepted the Gift of God, through the act of Belief and acceptance of Jesus Christ, would be included into the Kingdom and Saved.  That was essentially the direction that I had intended that discussion to go in.  Again different Christians have different opinions regarding this subject and, like this subject/thread, each Christian has reason to believe as they do and growth and maturity is a process that I believe is enhance by learning the reasons for others acceptance of doctrines that we do not necessarily accept.  It presents us with a better understanding of where and why these differences occur.

 

 

quote:   Originally Posted by gbrk:

Bill,  as you are very aware not all Christians accept the once saved always saved doctrine and those that do not believe based upon various scriptures which they feel support that position.  One verse that some advocates of OSAS (once saved, always saved) use is the following:  Matthew 12:27-29 (NIV)

 

From my understanding, of those who advocate that a Christian can lose their Salvation one of the major verses that they cite is the following:  Hebrews 6:1-6 (NLT)


Hi GB,

 

You rather talk all around the question -- but, first tell me:  On those two issues -- where do you stand?

 

Do you believe a person has eternal security in Christ, i.e., once saved, always saved -- or do you not believe this?

 

Do you, as do the Arminians, believe that a true believer can lose his/her salvation?

 

On the issue of eternal security, I have never used the Scripture passage, Matthew 12:27-29, although I suppose it can be used.  I find other verses and passages more to the point.  And, we must always remember that no theology can be built upon a verse or passage -- if another verse or passage truly contradicts it.  I believe that the Bible does indeed support the theology of "once saved, always saved."

 

Regarding the passage in Hebrews, I believe that in this passage the writer (Paul?) is addressing those Jews who heard the Gospel, began to believe (but, not to full commitment) and then, under duress from Judaizers, began to slide back into the customs, laws, and traditions of Judaism.  Paul, or the writer, is warning them that now that they are beginning to following Jesus under grace, do not fall back under the old Law.  As we are told in Romans 3:20, no one is saved through the Law.  This verse in Romans is telling us that knowledge of our sin comes through the Law, but, salvation comes only by grace, through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by gbrk:

Bill,  as you are very aware not all Christians accept the once saved always saved doctrine and those that do not believe based upon various scriptures which they feel support that position.  One verse that some advocates of OSAS (once saved, always saved) use is the following:  Matthew 12:27-29 (NIV)

 

From my understanding, of those who advocate that a Christian can lose their Salvation one of the major verses that they cite is the following:  Hebrews 6:1-6 (NLT)


Hi GB,

 

You rather talk all around the question -- but, first tell me:  On those two issues -- where do you stand?

 

Do you believe a person has eternal security in Christ, i.e., once saved, always saved -- or do you not believe this?

 

Do you, as do the Arminians, believe that a true believer can lose his/her salvation?

 

On the issue of eternal security, I have never used the Scripture passage, Matthew 12:27-29, although I suppose it can be used.  I find other verses and passages more to the point.  And, we must always remember that no theology can be built upon a verse or passage -- if another verse or passage truly contradicts it.  I believe that the Bible does indeed support the theology of "once saved, always saved."

 

Regarding the passage in Hebrews, I believe that in this passage the writer (Paul?) is addressing those Jews who heard the Gospel, began to believe (but, not to full commitment) and then, under duress from Judaizers, began to slide back into the customs, laws, and traditions of Judaism.  Paul, or the writer, is warning them that now that they are beginning to following Jesus under grace, do not fall back under the old Law.  As we are told in Romans 3:20, no one is saved through the Law.  This verse in Romans is telling us that knowledge of our sin comes through the Law, but, salvation comes only by grace, through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bill, I believe that as Christians we should always put the Cause of Christ above our own cause or our own ministry.  The reason I state that is that as with many sections of Scripture that Christians debate or disagree over the one you are talking about is at the top of that list.  One reason is that if a person could lose their salvation then I would assume, to the Christian, it would be the most important thing they would want to know and understand. 

 

I also think that Christian unity and living in the Love of Christ builds us up where when we get lost in our own righteousness and having to be right we cause dissension between ourselves.  While I believe that God uses some Scriptures to speak to different people in different ways I do not believe this is one of those.  The other thing I would like to say, before anything else, is that I hate and have a distinct distaste for the "Once Saved Always Saved" Moniker as that makes it sound like salvation is an insurance policy which leaves the Christian with nothing to do but be Saved and then they can continue to live any way they wish. 

 

On the other side of the coin, so to say, you have Churches and Christians that fully believe Salvation can be given up or yielded up.  I think one detrimental thing about this view is that many Christians or Churches can use this as a form of Christian slavery whereby you have Christians afraid to do much of anything or sin doing anything for fear that will be the sin that causes you to lose Salvation.  This leads to, I would assume, a very unhappy Christian life never knowing about the status of their Salvation.  If I commit this sin I'm ok but if I commit that one I'm in danger.  I think both views can be defended by use of scripture but in the end I, personally, accept only one view as valid and Scriptural.  For those who believe salvation can be lost their principal text is from Hebrews 6 and if, through discussion and debate, we are to pose a convincing argument for the security of Salvation then this passage has to be addressed and explained and I believe it can be.

 

As for what I personally believe I believe that once a person is Saved, truly saved, and God baptizes them with His Holy Spirit that God is faithful and will not withdraw his Gift based on future sins of the individual.  Some will argue and say but what about the person who willingly gives up the Holy Spirit and renounces God.  That is a condition and situation that, as a Christian, I have a very difficult time conceiving of for the process of Salvation is so profound and life altering as well as the gift of God's Holy Spirit that a total change happens to the person/spirit/mind.  That said there are many strong and dedicated Christians who believe you can lose salvation and to those I would say it is more important in the Cause of Christ for us to discuss this openly and discuss scripture in the light of salvation.  I do believe that the Bible's message is consistent throughout and not different one place then another.  The passage in Hebrews 6 sounds very much, from a superficial reading, that Salvation can be given up and lost but one has to ask several questions with regard to this passage and against the other passages in the text of Scripture that discusses Salvation, the Christian, the Christian that sins and Rewards.

 

So Bill I personally believe that Salvation is not taken away or lost by a truly Saved Child/Saint of God but I also would like to say by your interrogation of me regarding this belief and doctrine that it comes across as confrontational.  Granted I could be wrong in sensing that but this is why I think this subject is best discussed among mature Christians that have teaching and leadership of the Holy Spirit.  If I were you or can I put it I would lovingly suggest that, with this topic, that instead of standing with a dogmatic proclamation that you believe you are right and someone else is wrong that we discuss the reasons that lead us to our personal belief and address the scriptures that lead others to believe salvation can be lost or given up.  If a person does believe you can lose salvation then I would think one of the most important questions would be how and at what point does it happen?  As I said I, personally, do not believe that but again for those good and faithful Christians who do I would question also where Christ spoke about it  because it is only reasonable to state that if a Saved person could lose their salvation then it would be the most important question and topic among the disciples and Apostles so that the Church and Christians would know how it could be done.  I would think the gravity of that would be greatest because if one was to take Hebrews 6:4-6 literally then a Christian who did that would be beyond the possibility to be Saved again for it states it is impossible so clarification of that passage regardless of which stance you take is essential. 

 

I do not though believe Salvation is an insurance policy or get out of sin free card.  There are profound negative results for the Christian who chooses to willfully sin and when it becomes a lifestyle for the Christian then it very well could lead to early death 1 Cor 5:1-5.  Again ALL Scriptures should be analyzed in light of each other and together I fully believe a decision can be made.  Again though I do hate that terminology and believe we (who do believe as such) do promote it as a license to sin which causes disagreements among fellow believers.  It is something we should rationally talk together about without taking a confrontational or boastful stand.

Hi Vic,

You tell me, "Bill,,,,,You have a problem with the word 'Predestination.'"

No, I have a problem with the Calvinist teaching of the meaning of Predestination.  I believe that, through His Foreknowledge, i.e.,  omniscience, God foreknew who will choose to follow Christ and who will reject His "free gift" of eternal life.  Those who choose to follow Christ ARE predestined to eternal life with God.  Those who choose to reject Christ are predestined to eternal life in hell.

But, that is not the Calvinist teaching of Predestination.   If you will visit the following web site:


The Doctrines of Grace (TULIP):   http://www.grace.org.uk/faith/calvin.html

 

You will find that the Calvinist "Doctrine of Grace" -- more commonly known as TULIP teaches:

1.  Under the T of TULIP, we find:  Total Depravity -- which means that man can do nothing on his own to become a Christian believer; absolutely nothing.  In other words, man does not have the "free will" to choose to follow Christ or to reject Christ's gift of salvation.  This is their teaching of Total Depravity.  In other words, even if you love Jesus Christ with all your heart -- if YOU were not chosen before the Creation to be saved, to be in the Elect -- there is no way you can choose to follow Jesus Christ.

2.  Under the U of TULIP, we find:  Unconditional Election -- which means, in their words, that "God has shown us in his Word that from eternity past He has elected some sinners to be saved from the condemnation that is justly deserved by all."

In other words, before the Creation, God, in His sovereignty, chose SOME to be saved.  The others, called reprobates, He chose to send to hell.  This is the teaching of true Calvinism.

3.  Under the L in TULIP, we find:  Particular Redemption (or Limited Atonement) -- which means, in their words "Christ died only to save the elect, securing with absolute certainty their salvation."   In other words, Calvinism denies the teaching of John 3:16, "For God so loved the world (the world being ALL people), that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."   In my mind, whoever means WHOEVER -- not just some.

The TULIP Calvinists do not believe that Christ died to offer eternal life to WHOEVER believes -- but, only to the ELECT who were chosen by God before the Creation.    This I cannot buy.

4.  Under the I in TULIP, we find:  Irresistible Grace -- which means, in their words, "The Lord, by his Spirit, irresistibly draws His elect to Himself, raising them to spiritual life and making them willing to trust in Jesus."   Keep in mind that "His elect" -- in Calvinist teachings, are all those folks He arbitrarily chose before the Creation, before anyone was created or born, to be saved.

Under Calvinist teaching, if He has arbitrarily chosen Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, etc. -- or if He has arbitrarily chosen Deep, Jennifer, Uno, Fish, etc. -- to be saved -- they will be saved whether they want to be or not.

5.  Under the P in TULIP, we find:   Perseverance of the Saints -- which means, in the teachings of Calvinism, "Once God has saved elect sinners, he continues to keep and preserve them by his power and grace and will never let them go. Thus, they persevere to the end and can never be lost."   This is their teaching of "once saved, always saved" -- and, with this teaching, I do agree.  But, I will stipulate that I define "elect sinners" to be all who, by grace, through faith, have believed and received eternal life in Christ. 

So, to summarize my view of TULIP -- I somewhat agree with T -- Total Depravity, that man is totally depraved and lost due to our inherited Adamic sin nature.   However, I totally disagree with their rejection of the gift of "free will" which God has given to all people.

I totally reject their teaching of Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement -- for I believe the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ died for ALL people -- and that ALL who by grace, through faith, will believe and receive (John 1:12) His "free gift" of eternal life will be saved and spend eternity in the presence of God.

I somewhat agree with their teaching of Irresistible Grace -- for I believe that God can call anyone to Himself; but, in doing so -- He does not negate His gift of "free will."  If the person, i.e., Deep, Jennifer, Uno, Fish, etc. -- insists upon condemning himself/herself to eternal hell -- He will not force them to believe.  It is their own personal choice and He will not override their "free will" choice.

And, finally, I do agree 100% with Calvinism on their teaching of Perseverance of the Saints but, only with the stipulation that it includes all believers and not just a predetermined elect  -- the doctrine of "once saved, always saved."

So, Vic, that is where true Calvinism stands -- and that is where Bill Gray stands.  I do pray I have cleared up any misunderstandings you may have harbored before.

Then, you tell me, "You have a problem keeping your stories aligned with your misdirection of interpretation."

Vic, you keep jumping up and down, declaring that I have lied or had a wrong interpretation of the Bible.   Please stop jumping up and down long enough to tell us where this has happened.  Where, specifically, did I lie?  Which Bible passage or verse have I misinterpreted -- and, if so, what is YOUR interpretation of that verse or passage.

Jumping up and down does nothing but make you dizzier and upsets your stomach.  Being specific about my lies or my misinterpretations can lead to a meaningful discussion.  Which will you do?

Next, you tell me, "God doesn't choose anyone for heaven or hell.  You know that, you lie to justify what you want people to hear."

I do believe -- if you will stop jumping up and down long enough to read what I have written above in this post, and in so many other posts -- you will find that I agree with you.  God does not send anyone to hell.  The person has to choose to condemn himself/herself to hell.   So, where is the lie in this?

And, you declare, "For that you're dangerous.   God knew from the beginning who would send themselves to hell.  He also knew the ones who were saved of their own merit.   God doesn't choose anyone either way, I thought you knew that."

First of all, none of us "merit" salvation.  We are saved, by the unmerited grace and mercy of God -- through faith in Jesus Christ, period (Ephesians 2:8-9).

You say that I am dangerous.  I suppose the only danger I pose is that, in your statement above, I agree with you.   That is somewhat scary!  But, also encouraging when we can agree.

Finally, you mumble, "It doesn't matter if you believe once saved, never saved, only Christians, or whatever. Only you determine your salvation."

Duh!  Vic, I agree!  We do each, individually, choose our own eternal destination -- because He gave each  of us the gift of "free will."  And, I also do believe "once saved, always saved."

By the way, you can learn more about Calvinism and Arminianism if you will visit this web site:


The Five Points of Calvinism and Arminianism:

http://www.fivesolas.com/cal_arm.htm

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Hi GB,

 

You have written a lot -- but, you have not answered my questions.  This is not a political debate, nor are we politicians or political wannabes.   A simple answer to these two questions -- Yes or No -- will suffice.

 

Do you believe a person has eternal security in Christ, i.e., once saved, always saved -- or do you not believe this?

 

Do you, as do the Arminians, believe that a true believer can lose his/her salvation?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Hi Vic,

 

You gave the response I expected:  "Don't bother me with facts!  My mind is made up!"

 

Vic, have you EVER given a thought out, intelligent response to any post?  Or is your ability limited to "shoot from the hip" smart aleck comments?

 

My Friend, if you want to have a civil, intelligent dialogue -- let's do it.  If all you want to do is throw out barbs; then please go play by yourself.  I am not interested in a grade school level, play ground "spitting contest."

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Vic,

 

You gave the response I expected:  "Don't bother me with facts!  My mind is made up!"

 

Vic, have you EVER given a thought out, intelligent response to any post?  Or is your ability limited to "shoot from the hip" smart aleck comments?

 

My Friend, if you want to have a civil, intelligent dialogue -- let's do it.  If all you want to do is throw out barbs; then please go play by yourself.  I am not interested in a grade school level, play ground "spitting contest."

 

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

You don't have a civil discussion in you. All you have is your never changing

sanctimonious dogmatic I'm Jesus Jr. attitude.

 

I'm not interested in your make believe, fantasy land world you live in.

Who do you think you are?????

 

Iv

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi GB,

 

You have written a lot -- but, you have not answered my questions.  This is not a political debate, nor are we politicians or political wannabes.   A simple answer to these two questions -- Yes or No -- will suffice.

 

Do you believe a person has eternal security in Christ, i.e., once saved, always saved -- or do you not believe this?

 

Do you, as do the Arminians, believe that a true believer can lose his/her salvation?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Fair critique but may I suggest this is not a comedy or entertainment forum for there is great irony in you critiquing my writing as being long or wordy however I DID answer both of your questions and since you cannot seem to find it in my reply I will copy and re-paste it below and if you still don't know then I cannot say it much clearer.  From below you should be able to answer both your questions.  As for being political I'll accept that moniker over dictatorial, condemning, or judgmental any day.  While those may not be your intent often one does not realize how their post are received by the bulk of participants.  If you hear it form me I could be wrong for I'm subject to a mistake however if you hear it from two you may wonder what's wrong but if you hear it from everyone or most everyone then quite possibly you may be missing something and there be something there.   Another way of saying it is people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.


You also need to realize that although you may want to dictate how other forum members post it's not keeping with common courtesy to do so. As for your instructions about a "simple answer" may I suggest you lead by example if it is that important to you.  I answered your question though and you might have missed it but I also felt necessary, for the forum members who do not believe as I, to explain I realize that people have reasons to believe as they do.  Although we post responses to each other we are in effect posting to all participants (Christian and non-Christian) on the forum.   Now if you want to be dictatorial and instruct everyone how they are wrong because you are right then have at it.  I will choose dialog over dictate any day out of respect and common courtesy for my fellow Christian believer.  I do not claim infallibility in interpretation of Scripture nor did God assign me the Holy Spirit's ministry so I prefer not to approach people with a condemning or judgmental tone or one of superiority and laud it over someone else for I am human and subject to error just like everyone else, including you Bill.


.

From my earlier reply:

As for what I personally believe I believe that once a person is Saved, truly saved, and God baptizes them with His Holy Spirit that God is faithful and will not withdraw his Gift based on future sins of the individual.  

quote:   Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

OK, jimi.... Atheist War!   En garde!   I DO believe in killing roaches.  They're nasty disease vectors.  Sorry, they have to die.  At least around my house.  Luckily, we're not bad about roaches, and if one did show up, the cats would have his ***.  Otherwise, you have it all over the primitive apologists.  DF


Deep, my Friend,

 

It seems that since your old comrade-in-arms, Fish, left us (or at least pretended to leave us) -- you have now had to find a new partner.  Before, when Argue and Debate were trying to bring your Religion of Nothing to Forumland -- you always had your Quixotic Argue (Fish) with you.   Now, I suppose you have a new Argue -- Jimi.  What a team!   One who cannot write a response longer that six words -- and the other who cannot write a response without first referring to his Atheist Cutesy Comments bible. 

 

Oh, well, as Sonny and Cher sang some years ago, "And the beat goes on, and the beat goes on."   Keep up the good work. 

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

OK, jimi.... Atheist War!   En garde!   I DO believe in killing roaches.  They're nasty disease vectors.  Sorry, they have to die.  At least around my house.  Luckily, we're not bad about roaches, and if one did show up, the cats would have his ***.  Otherwise, you have it all over the primitive apologists.  DF


Deep, my Friend,

 

It seems that since your old comrade-in-arms, Fish, left us (or at least pretended to leave us) -- you have now had to find a new partner.  Before, when Argue and Debate were trying to bring your Religion of Nothing to Forumland -- you always had your Quixotic Argue (Fish) with you.   Now, I suppose you have a new Argue -- Jimi.  What a team!   One who cannot write a response longer that six words -- and the other who cannot write a response without first referring to his Atheist Cutesy Comments bible. 

 

Oh, well, as Sonny and Cher sang some years ago, "And the beat goes on, and the beat goes on."   Keep up the good work. 

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

It is easy to write a response of more than six words when all that you do is cut and paste. At least people read my responses. They will die of boredom before that get to the end of one of your rants. There, is that long enough for you?

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

OK, jimi.... Atheist War!   En garde!   I DO believe in killing roaches.  They're nasty disease vectors.  Sorry, they have to die.  At least around my house.  Luckily, we're not bad about roaches, and if one did show up, the cats would have his ***.  Otherwise, you have it all over the primitive apologists.  DF


Deep, my Friend,

 

It seems that since your old comrade-in-arms, Fish, left us (or at least pretended to leave us) -- you have now had to find a new partner.  Before, when Argue and Debate were trying to bring your Religion of Nothing to Forumland -- you always had your Quixotic Argue (Fish) with you.   Now, I suppose you have a new Argue -- Jimi.  What a team!   One who cannot write a response longer that six words -- and the other who cannot write a response without first referring to his Atheist Cutesy Comments bible. 

 

Oh, well, as Sonny and Cher sang some years ago, "And the beat goes on, and the beat goes on."   Keep up the good work. 

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

So NSNS makes a statement about cockroaches - completely outside of your discussion - and you post the above?   My Jesus forgives your Jesus, Bill.

 

Have another blissed day?

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Once saved, always saved is calvinist.

Hi Vic,

 

Yes, the Calvinist do believe in eternal security, i.e., "once saved, always saved."   However, many other Christians also believe the same.  You will find that many Christians feel as I do -- and as do most in the Baptist General Convention (BGC) -- we stand in the middle between the Calvinism and the Arminianism.

           Do you think hiding in the middle is believable? 

 

I cannot be a Calvinist -- for I completely disagree with them on their version of Predestination -- that God chose, before the Creation who would be His elect, i.e., who will go to heaven -- and who will be His reprobate, i.e., who will go to hell.  

          God doesn't determine who will go to Heaven or Hell.

          We manage that for ourselves, It's our call.

 

 

This is calling Jesus Christ a liar -- for He tell us, "He who believes HAS eternal life" (John 6:47).  This does not say, "Could have eternal life IF. . ." or "Will have eternal life IF. . ."   No, He clearly says, "He who believes HAS eternal life"

          You're saying this proves - Once Saved, Always saved.-----John 6: 47

                   

I believe Jesus is talking about something else.

John 6: 43--59

 

43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Stop murmuring among yourselves.

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him,

and I will raise him on the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets: 'They shall all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me.

46 Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father.

47 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

48 I am the bread of life.

49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;

50 this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.

51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."

52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?"

53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

54 Whoever eats 19my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life,

and I will raise him on the last day.

55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."

59 These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

 

Jesus is talking about the Holy Eucharist.

 

Iv

 

Hi Vic,

 

So, when Jesus Christ said, ""He who believes HAS eternal life" (John 6:47) -- that is NOT what He meant?  Is that what you are trying to tell us?  Are you saying that this statement from Jesus Christ has nothing to do with HAVING eternal life in Christ? 

 

Do you really believe that Jesus Christ was lying to us in John 6:47?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Vic,

 

So, when Jesus Christ said, ""He who believes HAS eternal life" (John 6:47) -- that is NOT what He meant?  Is that what you are trying to tell us?  Are you saying that this statement from Jesus Christ has nothing to do with HAVING eternal life in Christ? 

 

Do you really believe that Jesus Christ was lying to us in John 6:47?

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill,,, I'm saying you don't understand John 6........

 

In the entire train of thought in John 6: 47,, Jesus is presenting the new

Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. He knew it wasn't going to be accepted

by everyone and hasn't to this very day. It's necessary to read more than

one verse to see what is actually being said.

 

Jesus is saying the Living Bread that came down from Heaven will give eternal

Life.  Jesus said He is the Living Bread.........John 6: 43-59

 

He said who partakes of the Living Bread has eternal life

He didn't say "Once saved, always saved" and thats it.

 

As far as the Living bread is concerned, it all dovetails with the Last Supper

Why would he preach this, knowing he would lose all those disciples

If he was just joking about the entire text of this line of thought?

 

...     John 6: 31-70.........Would be the best way to see a clearer picture.

 

.

 

         

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Vic,

 

So, when Jesus Christ said, ""He who believes HAS eternal life" (John 6:47) -- that is NOT what He meant?  Is that what you are trying to tell us?  Are you saying that this statement from Jesus Christ has nothing to do with HAVING eternal life in Christ? 

 

Do you really believe that Jesus Christ was lying to us in John 6:47?

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill,,, I'm saying you don't understand John 6........

 

In the entire train of thought in John 6: 47,, Jesus is presenting the new

Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. He knew it wasn't going to be accepted

by everyone and hasn't to this very day. It's necessary to read more than

one verse to see what is actually being said.

 

Jesus is saying the Living Bread that came down from Heaven will give eternal

Life.  Jesus said He is the Living Bread.........John 6: 43-59

 

He said who partakes of the Living Bread has eternal life

He didn't say "Once saved, always saved" and thats it.

 

As far as the Living bread is concerned, it all dovetails with the Last Supper

Why would he preach this, knowing he would lose all those disciples

If he was just joking about the entire text of this line of thought?

 

...     John 6: 31-70.........Would be the best way to see a clearer picture.

 

.

 

         

Invictus, your babbling has no more EFFECT on reality than Bill's.

Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Vic,

 

So, when Jesus Christ said, ""He who believes HAS eternal life" (John 6:47) -- that is NOT what He meant?  Is that what you are trying to tell us?  Are you saying that this statement from Jesus Christ has nothing to do with HAVING eternal life in Christ? 

 

Do you really believe that Jesus Christ was lying to us in John 6:47?

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill,,, I'm saying you don't understand John 6........

 

In the entire train of thought in John 6: 47,, Jesus is presenting the new

Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. He knew it wasn't going to be accepted

by everyone and hasn't to this very day. It's necessary to read more than

one verse to see what is actually being said.

 

Jesus is saying the Living Bread that came down from Heaven will give eternal

Life.  Jesus said He is the Living Bread.........John 6: 43-59

 

He said who partakes of the Living Bread has eternal life

He didn't say "Once saved, always saved" and thats it.

 

As far as the Living bread is concerned, it all dovetails with the Last Supper

Why would he preach this, knowing he would lose all those disciples

If he was just joking about the entire text of this line of thought?

 

...     John 6: 31-70.........Would be the best way to see a clearer picture.

 

    

Invictus, your babbling has no more EFFECT on reality than Bill's.

------------------------------------------------------------

That affects me to the core, what about just small amount of effect?

Maybe a few fries with that?

 

.

Hi Vic,

So, when Jesus Christ said, "He who believes HAS eternal life" (John 6:47) -- that is NOT what He meant?

You say that Jesus Christ REALLY meant to say that "He who eats the Holy Eucharist HAS eternal life" in John 6:47.  If that is true, I wonder why He didn't just say that -- instead of saying, "He who believes -- HAS eternal life"?  Do you suppose He was confused and did not know what we must do to HAVE eternal life?  Do you suppose the Perfect Man, God the Son, who died to offer us eternal life -- did not know what we must do to have eternal life?

Isaiah 28:16, "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, 'Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the  foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed.'"   That "tested stone" -- that "costly cornerstone" in none other  than Jesus Christ, the Messiah.

John 3:14-15, "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life."

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

John 3:18, "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed  in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

John 6:35, "Jesus said to them, 'I am the Bread of Life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.'"

John 6:40, "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes -- has eternal life."

John 7:38, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"

John 11:25, "Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies.'"

John 11:26, "And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.  Do you believe this?"

John 12:44, "And Jesus cried out and said, 'He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me.'"

John 12:46, "I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness."

Vic, from what you are telling me, let me see if I truly understand your position.  In all these instances where Jesus said we must BELIEVE in Him to be saved -- it is YOUR contention that He should have said that we must eat the Holy Eucharist to be saved.

I wonder why He did not know this?  I wonder why Jesus Christ was wrong so many times?

And, when the apostle Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" -- Paul was wrong, because one must go to a Roman Catholic church and eat the Holy Eucharist to be saved?  Is that your contention?  Is that what you are asking us to believe?

If that is true -- then, I wonder how Jesus Christ, who is God -- and Paul, the most prolific New Testament writer -- both got it so wrong?  Any  thoughts on this, Vic?

Vic, my Friend, I am not telling you that you shouldn't believe in your Holy Eucharist.  However, when you come on the Religion Forum and tell us that a person must go to a Roman Catholic church, or some other liturgical church which believes in the Holy Eucharist --  and eat the Holy Eucharist to be saved -- I must refute that teaching.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Vic,

So, when Jesus Christ said, "He who believes HAS eternal life" (John 6:47) -- that is NOT what He meant?

You say that Jesus Christ REALLY meant to say that "He who eats the Holy Eucharist HAS eternal life" in John 6:47.  If that is true, I wonder why He didn't just say that -- instead of saying, "He who believes -- HAS eternal life"?  Do you suppose He was confused and did not know what we must do to HAVE eternal life?  Do you suppose the Perfect Man, God the Son, who died to offer us eternal life -- did not know what we must do to have eternal life?

Isaiah 28:16, "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, 'Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the  foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed.'"   That "tested stone" -- that "costly cornerstone" in none other  than Jesus Christ, the Messiah.

John 3:14-15, "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life."

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

John 3:18, "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed  in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

John 6:35, "Jesus said to them, 'I am the Bread of Life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.'"

John 6:40, "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes -- has eternal life."

John 7:38, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"

John 11:25, "Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies.'"

John 11:26, "And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.  Do you believe this?"

John 12:44, "And Jesus cried out and said, 'He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me.'"

John 12:46, "I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness."

Vic, from what you are telling me, let me see if I truly understand your position.  In all these instances where Jesus said we must BELIEVE in Him to be saved -- it is YOUR contention that He should have said that we must eat the Holy Eucharist to be saved.

I wonder why He did not know this?  I wonder why Jesus Christ was wrong so many times?

And, when the apostle Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" -- Paul was wrong, because one must go to a Roman Catholic church and eat the Holy Eucharist to be saved?  Is that your contention?  Is that what you are asking us to believe?

If that is true -- then, I wonder how Jesus Christ, who is God -- and Paul, the most prolific New Testament writer -- both got it so wrong?  Any  thoughts on this, Vic?

Vic, my Friend, I am not telling you that you shouldn't believe in your Holy Eucharist.  However, when you come on the Religion Forum and tell us that a person must go to a Roman Catholic church, or some other liturgical church which believes in the Holy Eucharist --  and eat the Holy Eucharist to be saved -- I must refute that teaching.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

------------------------------------------------------ + ----------------------------------------------------

Well Billie-je,,,you do it all the time, You make up a story to go with a story

you're making up now.

 

All I can tell you is to believe the Bible. Jesus said it, I believe it.

 

I believe the Bible, you don't, you only believe what you think it says.

 

Then here comes the hiss fit, screaming verses that doesn't mean what you

say it means.

 

I'm sure NOT telling YOU---(your words)--- " and eat the Holy Eucharist to be saved"----

I'm just saying,,,,Jesus said it and I believe it.

 

You can mix it and spin it all you want, you can change the Bible

 

But God doesn't change.

 

Martin Luther, the founder of the reform believed in the real presence of  Jesus in the Eucharist. In 1529, he engaged the question of transubstantiation in the famous conference at Marburg with Zwingli and other Swiss theologians; he maintained his view that Christ is present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist.

 

Iv

Last edited by INVICTUS
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Vic,

So, when Jesus Christ said, "He who believes HAS eternal life" (John 6:47) -- that is NOT what He meant?

You say that Jesus Christ REALLY meant to say that "He who eats the Holy Eucharist HAS eternal life" in John 6:47.  If that is true, I wonder why He didn't just say that -- instead of saying, "He who believes -- HAS eternal life"?  Do you suppose He was confused and did not know what we must do to HAVE eternal life?  Do you suppose the Perfect Man, God the Son, who died to offer us eternal life -- did not know what we must do to have eternal life?

Isaiah 28:16, "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, 'Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the  foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed.'"   That "tested stone" -- that "costly cornerstone" in none other  than Jesus Christ, the Messiah.

John 3:14-15, "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life."

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

John 3:18, "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed  in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

John 6:35, "Jesus said to them, 'I am the Bread of Life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.'"

John 6:40, "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes -- has eternal life."

John 7:38, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"

John 11:25, "Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies.'"

John 11:26, "And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.  Do you believe this?"

John 12:44, "And Jesus cried out and said, 'He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me.'"

John 12:46, "I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness."

Vic, from what you are telling me, let me see if I truly understand your position.  In all these instances where Jesus said we must BELIEVE in Him to be saved -- it is YOUR contention that He should have said that we must eat the Holy Eucharist to be saved.

I wonder why He did not know this?  I wonder why Jesus Christ was wrong so many times?

And, when the apostle Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" -- Paul was wrong, because one must go to a Roman Catholic church and eat the Holy Eucharist to be saved?  Is that your contention?  Is that what you are asking us to believe?

If that is true -- then, I wonder how Jesus Christ, who is God -- and Paul, the most prolific New Testament writer -- both got it so wrong?  Any  thoughts on this, Vic?

Vic, my Friend, I am not telling you that you shouldn't believe in your Holy Eucharist.  However, when you come on the Religion Forum and tell us that a person must go to a Roman Catholic church, or some other liturgical church which believes in the Holy Eucharist --  and eat the Holy Eucharist to be saved -- I must refute that teaching.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

------------------------------------------------------ + ----------------------------------------------------

Well Billie-je,,,you do it all the time, You make up a story to go with a story

you're making up now.

 

All I can tell you is to believe the Bible. Jesus said it, I believe it.

 

I believe the Bible, you don't, you only believe what you think it says.

 

Then here comes the hiss fit, screaming verses that doesn't mean what you

say it means.

 

I'm sure NOT telling YOU---(your words)--- " and eat the Holy Eucharist to be saved"----

I'm just saying,,,,Jesus said it and I believe it.

 

You can mix it and spin it all you want, you can change the Bible

 

But God doesn't change.

 

Martin Luther, the founder of the reform believed in the real presence of  Jesus in the Eucharist. In 1529, he engaged the question of transubstantiation in the famous conference at Marburg with Zwingli and other Swiss theologians; he maintained his view that Christ is present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist.

 

Iv

Sounds like Christians are also cannibals.

quote:   Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

Martin Luther, the founder of the reform believed in the real presence of  Jesus in the Eucharist. In 1529, he engaged the question of transubstantiation in the famous conference at Marburg with Zwingli and other Swiss theologians; he maintained his view that Christ is present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist.


Hi Vic,

 

And, Martin Luther was wrong.  Simple as that.  Any time there is a contradiction between a man, or men, and the Bible -- the Bible wins!  So, no bread and wine mysteriously turning into blood and raw flesh.  Just symbolic wine or juice and unleavened bread.

 

Something to consider.   Let's say that the wine and unleavened bread did turn into the blood and flesh of Jesus Christ every time a priest prayed over them -- and then, the millions and millions of gullible Roman Catholics ate his body and drank his blood.  Do you realize that, over the 1700 or so years the Roman Catholic church has been in existence -- how many tons of flesh and how many tanks of blood this would require?   I don't think there would be a warehouse big enough to hold all that flesh -- nor a tanker large enough to hold all that blood.

 

And, keep in mind that we are talking about Jesus Christ's human body -- maybe 5'8" tall, possibly 150 to 180 pounds.   How do we get all those millions of tons of human flesh and all those millions of gallons of human blood -- from such a human size body?

 

That is why, when I read Luke 22:19, "And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me' "-- I can relate to that.  We symbolically take communion IN REMEMBRANCE of Him, as He instructed us.

 

And, we do not have to worry about cold storage nor tanker cars for storage of human flesh and blood.  Sound logical to me.  Think about it.

 

This is very similar to all those people who have purchased rosaries which have, in a small container, a piece of the wood from the cross on which Jesus was crucified.  Do you realize that it would take a large forest to supply all those "small pieces" of the wooden cross which have been sold to gullible Roman Catholics over the centuries?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Some interesting thoughts by Steve Finnell:

 

APOSTASY---IS IT POSSIBLE?

 

Perseverance of the saints, commonly referred to as, once saved always saved, is a major tenet of Calvinism. The question is can a Christian fall from God's grace and be lost?

APOSTASY---IS IT POSSIBLE?

John 15:2-6 .....If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up, and they gather them , cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Being cast into a fire does not sound like, once saved always saved.

Hebrews 2:1-3 For this reason we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift from it......3. how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?......

Why would the writer of Hebrews warn of drifting from salvation if it was an impossibility?

Galatians 5:1-4 It was for freedom that Christ set us free ....4  You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

The apostle Paul said that some Christians had fallen from grace. Apostasy is not only possible, it happened.

Colossians 1:22-23 yet He has reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach---23 if indeed you continue in the  faith firmly established and steadfast , and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed  in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul was made a minister.

The apostle Paul said the Colossians would be holy and blameless on the condition they continued in the faith. Paul said, if, he did not say once in grace always in grace.

Hebrews 3:12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

Blood bought Christians (brethren) were warned to not stop believing (apostasy is to cease to believe.)

Hebrews 6:4-6 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

If Christians fall away (deny the gospel), they will not repent. Those Christians who deny the benefits of the shed blood of Christ simply will not repent, not because God prevents them. They have just lost the will to repent.

1 Timothy 4:1-5 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons..........

The Holy Spirit says some will fall away. Calvinism teaches apostasy is impossible. Who do you believe the Holy Spirit or the professors of Calvinism?

Galatians 1:2-9 .....To the churches of Galatia...6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel......9.....if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Paul stated that some of the Galatian Christians were falling away. They were practicing the teachings of the Judaizers. Some of the Jewish Christians were perverting the gospel by incorporating Old Testament ceremonial practices with the gospel of Christ.

APOSTASY  IS POSSIBLE!

Two things have to occur in order to convince men that the doctrine of, once in grace always in grace, is a Biblical truth.
1. You need willing students.
2. A skillful professional is needed, with a doctorate of Man-Made Traditions.

What is impossible? It is impossible to prayerfully search the Scriptures and still hold the view, APOSTASY IS IMPOSSIBLE.


(A TULIP NOTE) Some say I believe in the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints, however, I reject the other four points of Calvinism. 

1. T--Total Depravity
2. U--Unconditional Election
3. L--Limited Atonement
4. I--Irresistible Grace
5. P--Perseverance of the Saints

You cannot separate any of the five points of Calvinism. You either believe them all or none of them. 

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

 

Something to consider.   Let's say that the wine and unleavened bread did turn into the blood and flesh of Jesus Christ every time a priest prayed over them -- and then, the millions and millions of gullible Roman Catholics ate his body and drank his blood.  Do you realize that, over the 1700 or so years the Roman Catholic church has been in existence -- how many tons of flesh and how many tanks of blood this would require?   I don't think there would be a warehouse big enough to hold all that flesh -- nor a tanker large enough to hold all that blood.

 

Whatsamatter, Bill?   Don't believe in miracles?  Or is Jesus just limited to a few loaves and fish?  LOL.  What an imbecilic argument from someone who claims literal interpretations of the Bible.

Hi Crusty,

 

It is encouraging that you have the insight, even if it is not spiritual insight, to see the ridiculous ideas my statement was painting.  Just as foolish as believing that the millions of unleavened wafers and the millions of small cups of wine/juice consumed daily in churches around the world -- would become actual human flesh and blood -- just because a priest, a sinful man, prayed over them.

 

Yes, Jesus Christ is still in the miracle business.  He performs miracles every day -- if we only have the spiritual eyes to see them.  Some do, others like yourself are still walking in spiritual darkness and do not see God's glory all around us.

 

But, since He told us to take communion, unleavened bread and wine/juice, in REMEMBRANCE of Him until He returns -- I see no reason to expect top sirloin when I take communion.  And, I most certainly do not expect to be drinking blood; not even His blood.

 

But, once again, Crusty,  thank you.   You are a faithful ministry partner -- helping me to keep our Christian discussions in the Top Ten for our visiting Friends to more easily find.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Crusty,

But, once again, Crusty,  thank you.   You are a faithful ministry partner -- helping me to keep our Christian discussions in the Top Ten for our visiting Friends to more easily find.

Bill

Bill, anyone can quote scripture & give their opinion of said scripture. Do you honestly believe that those "visiting friends" is going to take anything you say seriously? Really, I would love your honest opinion. Mixed in with that scripture you quote & your opinion of what it means, is your put down of most everyone here. You can call everyone here your friends & end each post with "God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day" but what stands out is your treatment of others.

 

quote:   Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Bill, anyone can quote scripture & give their opinion of said scripture.  Do you honestly believe that those "visiting friends" is going to take anything you say seriously?  Really, I would love your honest opinion. 

Hi Chick,

 

It all depends upon what they are seeking.  If one comes to the Religion Forum seeking to grow in knowledge of God's Word; I believe they can do this from my writings.  This is not to say that everyone will agree with me -- but, even in disagreement, Christians can learn and mature through Biblical discussions.  And, the new Christians can grow in Bible maturity by participating in our discussions.

 

If the person reading is still a seeker, but truly interested in seeking more knowledge of God, the Bible, Jesus Christ, and salvation -- I do believe my writings can and will help that person.

 

If one is coming to the Religion Forum to spread atheism -- actually, he/she will often us my writings as springboards in an attempt to sell their false religion.  However, those false claims are easy to refute from God's Word.

 

And, then, there are those good old vanilla-flavored non-believers, such as yourself -- who will not agree with a Christian -- even if you are standing in a downpour -- and the Christian tells you it is raining.  Yet, there is still some hope for folks like you, for you do not absolutely deny God.  You just question Him and His love.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Add Reply

Post

Untitled Document
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×