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Hi to my Forum Friends,

Recently, my Friend, Bart B., sent an e-mail to a number of his friends asking: "Would Jesus vote Republican or Democrat?'

A friend, Rolando, responded with his thoughts shown in the e-mail below. And, below that is my view, along with my reasons, of how I believe Jesus is viewing America today and in this coming presidential election. Many folks say, "I don't like any of the candidates; so, I am not going to vote." My Friends, that is a vote. Not voting is voting -- but, most often for the wrong person. We must, each of us, prayerfully consider all the issues -- and then vote for the person God has put upon our heart.

I will keep this introduction short -- and just say: This is, in my opinion, the most important presidential election in my lifetime -- and I am 71 years young. Don't refuse to vote. Pray, study the issues and the candidates -- then, vote your Christian conscience.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Rolando wrote:

Here's my thought: I propose to paraphrase the question, "Who will Jesus Favor - the Republicans or the Democrats?"

My answer: the Democrats!

I borrow the quote of (our friend) Bart: "His ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts."

Following the arguments of Bart, the Americans who LOVE LIFE will vote for the Republicans. That is the human mind. Because our ways and our thoughts are not HIS thoughts and ways, He will favor the Democrats. He has preferential option for the poor (in spirit). During His life on earth, He wanted to dine with tax collectors, publicans, and sinners.

In the diary of St. Faustina (1160), Jesus said, "I am prolonging the time of mercy for the sake of sinners. But woe to them if they do not recognize this time of My visitation."

Jesus, King of Mercy, may the whole world trust in You!

Rolando


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi to everyone,

Most of you do not know me; but, I am a long time friend of Bart B. My name is Bill Gray and I have had a Christian writing ministry for the past twenty years, having become a born-again Christian under the tutelage of Pastor Sam Lacanienta in 1987. Since then, my wife, Dory (a Filipina), and I have worshipped in Filipino-American churches in Southern California.

The question is asked: Would Jesus vote, support, or favor the Republicans or the Democrats? My response to that is He would favor neither; He would look, not at the secular party affiliation -- but, rather at the hearts of those seeking positions of leadership. He would "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's" (Mark 12:17).

I sincerely believe that Jesus would look at the issues, not at the people. When the Pharisees brought the adulteress before Jesus in their attempt to trick him with their oratory -- Jesus looked at the hearts of the Pharisees; not the sin of this woman. There He saw much darkness. Then, He brought them back to the real issue at hand -- what was in their hearts?

Don't you believe that Jesus would look into the hearts of those running for office; rather than their oratorical skills?

The real issues we should be considering -- and the ones I sincerely believe Jesus will be considering are:

1. Where do they stand on abortion? Are they willing to save His children or are they willing to sacrifice them to the Molech, god of recreational sex? Does anyone believe that Jesus would support killing, through abortion, 1.4 million unborn babies every year in America since 1973? I do not.

2. Where do they stand on the issue of Biblical Marriage? Marriage was instituted by God; God officiated at the very first wedding. Genesis 1:27 tells us, "And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created them: male and female He created them." Everything God created was for a specific reason and had a divinely appointed purpose. God created them male and female so that they might "be fruitful and multiply" (v 1:28). Then, God declared this to be "very good" (v 1:31).

In Genesis 2:22, we read, "The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man." The first wedding -- officiated by God Himself. Does anyone believe that Jesus supports Same-Sex Marriage? I do not.

3. Where do they stand on the eviction of God -- from our schools, public life, and, if we are not diligent -- even from our churches in the future? Since 1963, God has not been allowed in our pubic schools. Over the years we have seen God evicted from our public forums: no nativity scenes, no CHRIST in Christmas, no Ten Commandments in any public facility, etc. Does anyone believe that Jesus supports having God evicted from American life? I do not.

With that said, let's look at where our candidates stand on these issues.

THE CANDIDATES ON ABORTION:

NARAL and Planned Parenthood are the standard bearers for the Pro-Abortion Movement. Each year NARAL rates the politicians on how they vote for or against abortion issues. A high rating means that the candidate has voted to support abortion; a low rating shows that a candidate has voted against abortion.

Looking at the NARAL ratings for Obama: NARAL has consistently given him a rating of 100%. Biden is not far behind him.

Looking at the NARAL ratings for McCain: NARAL has consistently given him a 0% rating. To NARAL, McCain is disgustingly Pro-Life.

Governor Sarah Palin leaves no doubt where she stands on abortion. She recently gave birth to a child with Down Syndrome -- no question of an abortion. Her teenage daughter is pregnant and unwed -- no thought of an abortion. Sarah Palin not only talks the talk; she walks the walk.

How does Obama see himself on the issue of abortion? Below is his personal statement: Link

Obama's personal statement: "Thirty-five years after the Supreme Court decided Roe v. Wade, it's never been more important to protect a woman's right to choose... Throughout my career, I've been a consistent and strong supporter of reproductive justice, and have consistently had a 100% pro-choice rating with Planned Parenthood and NARAL Pro-Choice America."

On the same web site, what does NARAL say about John McCain?

Think Sen. John McCain is a "moderate maverick?" Think again. McCain has spent the last 25 years amassing one of the worst anti-choice voting records in Congress. It's time for America to meet the REAL McCain!

Meaning that McCain has amassed one of the best Pro-Life records in Congress.

On the same web site, what does NARAL say about Sarah Palin?

Sen. John McCain announced that his running mate is anti-choice Gov. Sarah Palin. During her campaign for Governor, Palin said that she is opposed to abortion, even in cases of rape or incest.

My Friends, when we look at the occurrence of rape and incest, and even combine them with risks to the mother's health -- all these together represent less than 3% of all the abortion cases. Looking at the 1.4 million abortions a year -- this means that less than 42,000 are from rape, incest, and mother's health -- while 1,358,000 (1.36 million) are for the purpose of birth control only; for the sake of recreational sex. In other words, in America, every year since 1973 -- we have allowed over ONE MILLION babies to be sacrificed to the god of recreational sex, Molech. Don't you think it is time we put a stop to this secular pagan practice?

THE CANDIDATES ON SAME-SEX MARRIAGE:

From the LesbianLife web site: Link

OBAMA:

Barack Obama believes gays and lesbians should have the same rights to adopt children as heterosexuals.

Barack Obama did vote against a Federal Marriage Amendment and opposed the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996.

He said he would support civil unions between gay and lesbian couples, as well as letting individual states determine if marriage between gay and lesbian couples should be legalized.


In other words, if Obama were president, he would pass the buck to the states -- allowing him to keep his hands clean.

BIDEN:

Joe Biden says gays and lesbians should have the same rights to adopt children as heterosexuals.

Joe Biden supported the Uniting American Families Act, a bill that would allow gay and lesbian Americans to sponsor their non-American same-sex partners for immigration.


McCAIN:

John McCain's has stated that is is against gay and lesbian couples adopting children.

John McCain said he supported an Amendment to Arizona's Constitution that would ban gay marriages and deny government benefits to unmarried couples.

McCain: "I am for the values that two parent families, the traditional family represents."


PALIN:

Sarah Palin is opposed to gay marriage. Alaska was one of the first states to pass a "Defense of Marriage" law, banning marriage between same-sex partners in 1988 and Palin supported it. Her campaign web site for Governor in 2007 stated: I am pro-life and I believe that marriage should only be between and man and a woman.

She is a first-term governor from Alaska and a conservative who is against abortion rights, for gun rights and (for) oil drilling in Alaska's wilderness.


God bless this woman!

THE CANDIDATES ON FAITH:

OBAMA: Link

"If we truly hope to speak to people where they're at - to communicate our hopes and values in a way that's relevant to their own - then as progressives, we cannot abandon the field of religious discourse…Because when we ignore the debate about what it means to be a good Christian or Muslim or Jew; when we discuss religion only in the negative sense of where or how it should not be practiced, rather than in the positive sense of what it tells us about our obligations towards one another…others will fill the vacuum, those with the most insular views of faith, or those who cynically use religion to justify partisan ends.” – Call to Renewal Keynote Address

“Given the increasing diversity of America's population, the dangers of sectarianism have never been greater. Whatever we once were, we are no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers.” - Call to Renewal Keynote Address

Let me remind you that, by Progressive, Obama means Liberal. Barack Obama supports a Liberal Theology. Barack Obama support Liberal Politics.

During the recent Saddleback Church Civic Forum, when Obama was asked about his faith; he went off on a long dissertation about his grandmother's faith and his family, quoted a few Scripture verses (very well rehearsed, almost no glitches) and when he finished, I am sure I am not the only one who said to myself, [oi]"Huh! What did he say? Did he say yes or no to Christian faith?"[/i]

At this same forum, when asked when life begins, Obama waltzed around the question with, "That is above my pay grade."

Is being president of America also above his pay grade?

BIDEN: Link

On another web site, I saw that Senator Biden is Catholic. Yet, on his own web site, on the page labeled "Biography and Personal Information" of Joe Biden -- there is no mention of him being Catholic, or any other denomination. On his own web site -- there is no mention of whether he believes in God or not.

Yet, his voting record shows that he is very Pro-Abortion and supports the Homosexual Activist's agenda.

From the web site: Link September 10, 2008

WASHINGTON (RNS) Several leading U.S. Catholic bishops are publicly rebuking Sen. Joe Biden, accusing the Democratic vice presidential nominee of voicing "flawed moral reasoning" on abortion. The criticism comes soon after nearly a dozen U.S. bishops castigated House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., for saying abortion continues to be an "issue of controversy" in the Catholic Church. Both Democrats' comments came on NBC's "Meet the Press."

Biden said on Sunday (Sept. 7) that "I'm prepared as a matter of faith to accept that life begins at conception." But, he added, "for me to impose that judgment on others is inappropriate in a pluralistic society."


Even Democrat Harry Truman would have called this "Passing The Buck!"

McCAIN:

During the Saddleback Church Civic Forum, when asked about his Christian faith, John McCain replied, "I am saved."

In that same forum, when McCain was asked when life begins, without any pause, with no hesitation -- he said, "At conception."

PALIN: Link

When early testing showed that Palin's fifth child would be born with Down syndrome, Palin's pro-life stance and undoubtedly her Christian faith, kept her from ever considering ending the pregnancy. When little "Trig" was born, Sarah told the Anchorage Daily News, "she was sad at first but they now feel blessed that God chose them." This press statement from the Palin family explains in more detail:

"Trig is beautiful and already adored by us. We knew through early testing he would face special challenges, and we feel privileged that God would entrust us with this gift and allow us unspeakable joy as he entered our lives. We have faith that every baby is created for good purpose and has potential to make this world a better place. We are truly blessed."


How does her faith guide her decisions?: Link

Regarding social issues: "A significant part of Palin's base of support lies among social and Christian conservatives. Her positions on social issues emerged slowly during the campaign: on abortion (should be banned for anything other than saving the life of the mother), stem cell research (opposed), physician-assisted suicide (opposed), creationism (should be discussed in schools), state health benefits for same-sex partners (opposed, and supports a constitutional amendment to bar them)."

Regarding Creation and Evolution in schools:
"Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information....Healthy debate is so important and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both. And you know, I say this too as the daughter of a science teacher. Growing up with being so privileged and blessed to be given a lot of information on, on both sides of the subject -- creationism and evolution. It's been a healthy foundation for me. But don't be afraid of information and let kids debate both sides."


So, in conclusion, my Friends, when Rolando, in his e-mail above, wrote: "During His life on earth, He (Jesus) wanted to dine with tax collectors, publicans, and sinners" -- I have to agree with him. However, Jesus was not blessing or accepting the wayward lives of these folks -- He was there to save them from their wayward lifestyles.

Would Jesus have voted to elect those tax collectors, publicans, and sinners to high office? No. He was there to save them; not to promote them.

We should view our prospective leaders in the same light. We should pray for them; we should give them all the respect they have earned -- but, when their values, their views on issues which directly affect our Christian way of life -- are so opposite the teachings of the Bible; we cannot promote them to high office. Neither would Jesus.

Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net

Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!

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quote:
Originally posted by T S C: I don't think Christ would sully himself with politics OR religion.
Hi TSC,

In Matthew 17:24-27 didn't Jesus tell Peter to catch the fish, remove the shekel from its mouth, and go pay the tax collector?

In Mark 12:17, when asked about paying taxes to Caesar, did not Jesus reply, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

In Romans 13:1, we are taught, "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God."

Jesus was not apolitical -- nor was He against religion; for He Himself was the product of the Jewish religion. Yet, He came to bring us a New Testament, a New Covenant. He came to bring us Christianity.

Is Jesus concerned with the choices we make in our leadership? I do believe He is; for you and I both know He is against killing babies; you and I both know He finds the homosexual lifestyle abominable; you and I both know that He is a Creationist, having done the creating Himself; you and I both know He is very Pro-God, being Himself God. So, TSC, yes, I do believe that Jesus is very concerned with who we select to lead our country.

He will not interfere -- but, He does care.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Ralph Scogin:
JESUS WOULD HAVE VOTED REPUBLICAN

Hi Ralph,

Not necessarily. But, He would most certainly look into the hearts of those who want to be president -- and take notice of how they treat His unborn babies; how they treat His God-ordained Biblical marriage; and how they treat Him in our schools and public places.

Then, He would vote His Christian conscience. So should we.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
quote:
Originally posted by bubbaluck:
Well He was pretty clear about taking care of the poor and prisoners and the unloveable. He said Feed my sheep. He didn't say make sure the rich are taken care of and their good fortune will "trickle down" and naturally take care of the poor.

Hi Bubba,

Do you think He would include the unborn babies in that -- or would a person only qualify after birth?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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If you believe that God interferes in everyday life, then you have to know that he favors chaos and injustice, and that every person ever elected, crowned, or otherwise elevated is all part of the Plan. Quite frankly, who does Jesus support is a ridiculous question with no answer.

Jesus was political, Bill?????? I'm speechless.
Injustice??? Chaos???

Crusty please bow your head.

Dear God, we know that Crusty, a child of yours cannot fathom the wisdom with which you rule the universe. Please forgive him Lord, for he hasn't let you into his heart and his bank account. He mistakes your divine creation for chaos. Help him Jesus because we know that this is impossible, impossible because this is all part of a heavenly God's plan. He's in control. Crusty, you must accept this and worship him and never question his mysterious ways, for the power and the glory are all his. In Jesus name we prey.

Amen

(Crusty, by now you hear Jesus calling your name, with an angelic choir in the background, asking to come into your life and heal you, and to bless your noggin and put any unholy thoughts right out of your head. Please open your heart and your wallet to God. He'll be glad you did.)


P.S. Jesus would obviously vote for himself.
Hi all,

Most of us know the story of Noah; how the multitude laughed and mocked him as he built the ark. Then, all of a sudden one day, there was no more laughter, no more mocking -- just pleas for Noah to open the gate and let them in. But, unfortunately, they had already made their choice -- and they had to swim with it.

Then, there was Sodom; when the folks mocked Lot and tried to abuse the angels. Even Lot's son-in-laws laughed and did not believe him. But, then the heavens poured down -- and it was too late to believe.

I sincerely pray that all of our atheist and other non-believing Friends, all those who mock the name of Jesus -- do not wait until it is too late.

But, it is up to them. Better hurry though; you never know when that last breath will come.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessled day,

Bill

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To the board:

Using satire to describe an ancient tribal superstition is just fine in my book. I don't fear any god, any devil, or any other imaginary deity or spirit.

Why someone could and would suppress their common sense and good judgment is a question I beg.

Knowledge, evidence and reason are like kryptonite to all religions. We see religions wither in its presence, and rightfully so.

Fairy tales are usually reserved for small children, yet some foolishly hold on to them and refuse to subject them to the same standards they use in every other aspect of their lives.

Ignorance may get a temporary pass, but stupidity doesn't.

Let's test any God's powers and your beliefs in them. Let's set up two identical portfolios, A and B, and let as many people as possible pray for portfolio A, and we can compare the results.

Sound fair?

Regards
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
The character named Jesus was one of the biggest liberals invented by man.

I think he'd be pissed that people like Bill Gray are using his name to preach hatred and intolerance.
I agree Fish. I think that Christ is disgusted with man's creation of denominations and religion. Christ never advocated that. And as to politics, there is a big difference between paying taxes (render to Caesar what is Caesar's) and putting an Obama sign in your yard.
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
81,
You have said you have no stand on religion but you use the Stupid atheists tricks just like Fishy. Are you sure you're not an atheist?


LMM, there's simply no reason to presuppose something like this(belief in the supernatural) with no evidence. If people researched the history of all religions I think they might have a change of heart.

I'm not an atheist, technically speaking.

I have said many times that I could and would change my mind on any subject in light of sufficient evidence. Something credible.

If Jesus comes down out of the clouds, and performs magic tricks and miracles in front of the whole world and we have gathered sufficient indisputable evidence, at that point the science of Jesus and his religion will be revealed and I will believe.

I'm amazed at how believers of one religion can look at another religion(or practically every other religion), use their common sense, good judgment, logic and reason and immediately see right through it. Spot the ridiculous claims and know that it is a "false" religion. Yet when they look at their religion, they put those standards mentioned above away and believe in theirs....
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LMM:
81,
You have said you have no stand on religion but you use the Stupid atheists tricks just like Fishy. Are you sure you're not an atheist?


If Jesus comes down out of the clouds, and performs magic tricks and miracles in front of the whole world and we have gathered sufficient indisputable evidence, at that point the science of Jesus and his religion will be revealed and I will believe.



That is exactly what He did...you just weren't born yet!
quote:
Originally posted by savinforarainyday:
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LMM:
81,
You have said you have no stand on religion but you use the Stupid atheists tricks just like Fishy. Are you sure you're not an atheist?


If Jesus comes down out of the clouds, and performs magic tricks and miracles in front of the whole world and we have gathered sufficient indisputable evidence, at that point the science of Jesus and his religion will be revealed and I will believe.



That is exactly what He did...you just weren't born yet!


Saving, there's just one problem with that:

No evidence.

Its a story taken from heavily edited ancient tribal text, even before the bible. The Jesus story was "borrowed" from religions before christianity.

My advice to you is to do some research. Don't just take my word or the word of a preacher.

Do it yourself and keep an open mind.

Good Luck
quote:
If Jesus comes down out of the clouds, and performs magic tricks and miracles in front of the whole world and we have gathered sufficient indisputable evidence, at that point the science of Jesus and his religion will be revealed and I will believe.



Unfortuntely for you, 8I, waiting to believe at that time won't to save you from an eternal fire and ****ation. So many people "wait", either not believing, or thinking they'll have time, after they finish "sowing their oats". To me.....that's WAY too much of a risk to take. Considering God can take any of us out in the blink of an eye.
Anyway, 81? If you DO see God return and perform his "science", finally believe, but still spend an eternity in hell......well, I would say that would really suck, but I feel like Hell will be Hell, regardless.
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:

(Crusty, by now you hear Jesus calling your name, with an angelic choir in the background, asking to come into your life and heal you, and to bless your noggin and put any unholy thoughts right out of your head.

Are you sure that's not Elvis?

Nah, Crusty,

From what I saw and know of Elvis; I believe he is singing with the Heavenly Choir. The one you, Miami, Deep, Fish, and a few other Friends have chosen, so far, is the other team.

Most likely the song they will be singing is "It Will Be A Hot Time In The Old Town Tonight!"

Of course, you still have time to join the real team -- so that you do not end up on the Dead End Team.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by For The Least of These:
quote:
If Jesus comes down out of the clouds, and performs magic tricks and miracles in front of the whole world and we have gathered sufficient indisputable evidence, at that point the science of Jesus and his religion will be revealed and I will believe.


Unfortuntely for you, 8I, waiting to believe at that time won't to save you from an eternal fire and ****ation. So many people "wait", either not believing, or thinking they'll have time, after they finish "sowing their oats". To me.....that's WAY too much of a risk to take. Considering God can take any of us out in the blink of an eye.
Anyway, 81? If you DO see God return and perform his "science", finally believe, but still spend an eternity in hell......well, I would say that would really suck, but I feel like Hell will be Hell, regardless.


Make believe gods, devils, goblins, angels, ghosts, leprechauns, the easter bunny, the great pumpkin, tooth fairies, and the threat of getting knocked off of Santa's christmas list really doesn't motivate, frighten or concern me.

I'm not in the habit of buying into any BS, and certainly wouldn't base my life on such a flimsy crock. However, I will make a special effort to avoid it.

Regards, 8I
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:

(Crusty, by now you hear Jesus calling your name, with an angelic choir in the background, asking to come into your life and heal you, and to bless your noggin and put any unholy thoughts right out of your head.

Are you sure that's not Elvis?

Nah, Crusty,

From what I saw and know of Elvis; I believe he is singing with the Heavenly Choir. The one you, Miami, Deep, Fish, and a few other Friends have chosen, so far, is the other team.

Most likely the song they will be singing is "It Will Be A Hot Time In The Old Town Tonight!"

Of course, you still have time to join the real team -- so that you do not end up on the Dead End Team.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill


In time, the team of logic, evidence, reason, common sense and good judgment will always be proven true and self evident.

Why would anyone settle for less?

IMHO, civilization is worthy and shouldn't settle for anything less.

Bill, there is room for you(and everyone else) in the first world, I strongly suggest you join us.

Regards, 8I
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
quote:
Originally posted by For The Least of These:
quote:
If Jesus comes down out of the clouds, and performs magic tricks and miracles in front of the whole world and we have gathered sufficient indisputable evidence, at that point the science of Jesus and his religion will be revealed and I will believe.


Unfortuntely for you, 8I, waiting to believe at that time won't to save you from an eternal fire and ****ation. So many people "wait", either not believing, or thinking they'll have time, after they finish "sowing their oats". To me.....that's WAY too much of a risk to take. Considering God can take any of us out in the blink of an eye.
Anyway, 81? If you DO see God return and perform his "science", finally believe, but still spend an eternity in hell......well, I would say that would really suck, but I feel like Hell will be Hell, regardless.


Make believe gods, devils, goblins, angels, ghosts, leprechauns, the easter bunny, the great pumpkin, tooth fairies, and the threat of getting knocked off of Santa's christmas list really doesn't motivate, frighten or concern me.

I'm not in the habit of buying into any BS, and certainly wouldn't base my life on such a flimsy crock. However, I will make a special effort to avoid it.

Regards, 8I



8I,
I know you really hope Christians are wrong, BUT
what if we're right? Are YOU willing to take that chance?
quote:
Originally posted by For The Least of These:
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
quote:
Originally posted by For The Least of These:
quote:
If Jesus comes down out of the clouds, and performs magic tricks and miracles in front of the whole world and we have gathered sufficient indisputable evidence, at that point the science of Jesus and his religion will be revealed and I will believe.


Unfortuntely for you, 8I, waiting to believe at that time won't to save you from an eternal fire and ****ation. So many people "wait", either not believing, or thinking they'll have time, after they finish "sowing their oats". To me.....that's WAY too much of a risk to take. Considering God can take any of us out in the blink of an eye.
Anyway, 81? If you DO see God return and perform his "science", finally believe, but still spend an eternity in hell......well, I would say that would really suck, but I feel like Hell will be Hell, regardless.


Make believe gods, devils, goblins, angels, ghosts, leprechauns, the easter bunny, the great pumpkin, tooth fairies, and the threat of getting knocked off of Santa's christmas list really doesn't motivate, frighten or concern me.

I'm not in the habit of buying into any BS, and certainly wouldn't base my life on such a flimsy crock. However, I will make a special effort to avoid it.

Regards, 8I



8I,
I know you really hope Christians are wrong, BUT
what if we're right? Are YOU willing to take that chance?


For, I don't hope that christians are wrong, I'm simply pointing out the unreasonable thought process of all religions, and the overwhelming evidence that says so. I'm hoping that the religious followers eventually see this and realize that there isn't any reason to continue to balkanize our communities into separate, divisive belief systems that often result in conflict and death.

Based on our conversation and your tag line, I'm assuming you are a person who believes in the bible and christian faith.

Why?

Regards, 8I
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
quote:
Originally posted by For The Least of These:
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
quote:
Originally posted by For The Least of These:
quote:
If Jesus comes down out of the clouds, and performs magic tricks and miracles in front of the whole world and we have gathered sufficient indisputable evidence, at that point the science of Jesus and his religion will be revealed and I will believe.


Unfortuntely for you, 8I, waiting to believe at that time won't to save you from an eternal fire and ****ation. So many people "wait", either not believing, or thinking they'll have time, after they finish "sowing their oats". To me.....that's WAY too much of a risk to take. Considering God can take any of us out in the blink of an eye.
Anyway, 81? If you DO see God return and perform his "science", finally believe, but still spend an eternity in hell......well, I would say that would really suck, but I feel like Hell will be Hell, regardless.


Make believe gods, devils, goblins, angels, ghosts, leprechauns, the easter bunny, the great pumpkin, tooth fairies, and the threat of getting knocked off of Santa's christmas list really doesn't motivate, frighten or concern me.

I'm not in the habit of buying into any BS, and certainly wouldn't base my life on such a flimsy crock. However, I will make a special effort to avoid it.

Regards, 8I



8I,
I know you really hope Christians are wrong, BUT
what if we're right? Are YOU willing to take that chance?


For, I don't hope that christians are wrong, I'm simply pointing out the unreasonable thought process of all religions, and the overwhelming evidence that says so. I'm hoping that the religious followers eventually see this and realize that there isn't any reason to continue to balkanize our communities into separate, divisive belief systems that often result in conflict and death.

Based on our conversation and your tag line, I'm assuming you are a person who believes in the bible and christian faith.

Why?

Regards, 8I


Yes I believe strongly in the bible and of my Christian Faith. I know that I know, that the Holy Trinity exists, and it's evident in everything we see and do. There are no Coincidences. How many times have you seen people walk away from a horrific car wreck, and say "it was a miracle that they survived"? God provided that miracle. Ever seen people who were at the "end of their rope", but miraculously, their needs were met? God met their needs.
God created the heavens and the earth. That is how I know He lives, and is our Supreme Being. Yes that comes from the Bible, which is God inspired and God written. So naturally I believe It.
May I suggest you read a book written by Lee Strobel called "The Case For Christ". In writing this book, he was trying to disprove His existance. He found out different.
And as far as Christians balkanizing "our communities into separate, divisive belief systems that often result in conflict and death".
Satan is the master of that one. As Christians, we are taught to love everyone, and pray for those who are misled by Satan's rhetoric.
Sorry if you don't understand my joy in knowing that my sins are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ, and that I know I will have an eternal life with my Father God when I leave this world. I just hope I can take as many people with me along the way ! But if they refuse to accept God, that is on them.
I am charged by God to tell everyone about His undying and unconditional love, and the promise of life everlasting in heaven with Him, when we die. So I HAVE to tell people, and pray they will accept. I have no choice. Now anyone can choose NOT to believe, but I will still continue to pray for them and for all of those who are lost and struggling.
Hope that explains a little.

FAITH
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:

(Crusty, by now you hear Jesus calling your name, with an angelic choir in the background, asking to come into your life and heal you, and to bless your noggin and put any unholy thoughts right out of your head.

Are you sure that's not Elvis?

Nah, Crusty,

From what I saw and know of Elvis; I believe he is singing with the Heavenly Choir. The one you, Miami, Deep, Fish, and a few other Friends have chosen, so far, is the other team.

Most likely the song they will be singing is "It Will Be A Hot Time In The Old Town Tonight!"

Of course, you still have time to join the real team -- so that you do not end up on the Dead End Team.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill


Bill, I will never join your hateful team. Good luck on getting where you think you are going.

Have a blissed day.
quote:
Originally posted by For The Least of These:
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
quote:
Originally posted by For The Least of These:
quote:
If Jesus comes down out of the clouds, and performs magic tricks and miracles in front of the whole world and we have gathered sufficient indisputable evidence, at that point the science of Jesus and his religion will be revealed and I will believe.


Unfortuntely for you, 8I, waiting to believe at that time won't to save you from an eternal fire and ****ation. So many people "wait", either not believing, or thinking they'll have time, after they finish "sowing their oats". To me.....that's WAY too much of a risk to take. Considering God can take any of us out in the blink of an eye.
Anyway, 81? If you DO see God return and perform his "science", finally believe, but still spend an eternity in hell......well, I would say that would really suck, but I feel like Hell will be Hell, regardless.


Make believe gods, devils, goblins, angels, ghosts, leprechauns, the easter bunny, the great pumpkin, tooth fairies, and the threat of getting knocked off of Santa's christmas list really doesn't motivate, frighten or concern me.

I'm not in the habit of buying into any BS, and certainly wouldn't base my life on such a flimsy crock. However, I will make a special effort to avoid it.

Regards, 8I



8I,
I know you really hope Christians are wrong, BUT
what if we're right? Are YOU willing to take that chance?


If you are basing your belief on a bet, it's not much of a belief is it?
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by For The Least of These:
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
quote:
Originally posted by For The Least of These:
quote:
If Jesus comes down out of the clouds, and performs magic tricks and miracles in front of the whole world and we have gathered sufficient indisputable evidence, at that point the science of Jesus and his religion will be revealed and I will believe.


Unfortuntely for you, 8I, waiting to believe at that time won't to save you from an eternal fire and ****ation. So many people "wait", either not believing, or thinking they'll have time, after they finish "sowing their oats". To me.....that's WAY too much of a risk to take. Considering God can take any of us out in the blink of an eye.
Anyway, 81? If you DO see God return and perform his "science", finally believe, but still spend an eternity in hell......well, I would say that would really suck, but I feel like Hell will be Hell, regardless.


Make believe gods, devils, goblins, angels, ghosts, leprechauns, the easter bunny, the great pumpkin, tooth fairies, and the threat of getting knocked off of Santa's christmas list really doesn't motivate, frighten or concern me.

I'm not in the habit of buying into any BS, and certainly wouldn't base my life on such a flimsy crock. However, I will make a special effort to avoid it.

Regards, 8I



8I,
I know you really hope Christians are wrong, BUT
what if we're right? Are YOU willing to take that chance?


If you are basing your belief on a bet, it's not much of a belief is it?


Crusty,
I KNOW I'm right. It's Biggles that seems to have a lack of faith. I was just pandering to what he has stated is his belief.
Rest assured Crusty, I KNOW I am right on my belief ! Big Grin
Based on my relationship with my Savior, (who by the way also died for you).
Based on a very well known Book of Life called the Holy Bible. In that Bible are stories and stories of history and prophecies that have all come to pass, and are CONTINUING to happen. Try reading Revelation and come back and tell us the Prophecies foretold thousands of years ago, are just "coincident". Many of the Prophecies have happened, are currently happening, and are yet to happen. 2 out of 3......If I were you, I don't think I would +chance" the 3rd, without God.
quote:
Originally posted by For The Least of These:
Based on my relationship with my Savior, (who by the way also died for you).
Based on a very well known Book of Life called the Holy Bible. In that Bible are stories and stories of history and prophecies that have all come to pass, and are CONTINUING to happen. Try reading Revelation and come back and tell us the Prophecies foretold thousands of years ago, are just "coincident". Many of the Prophecies have happened, are currently happening, and are yet to happen. 2 out of 3......If I were you, I don't think I would +chance" the 3rd, without God.


Help me out. Give me a couple of prophecies out of Revelations that has come true subsequent to the Bible being written..
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by For The Least of These:
Based on my relationship with my Savior, (who by the way also died for you).
Based on a very well known Book of Life called the Holy Bible. In that Bible are stories and stories of history and prophecies that have all come to pass, and are CONTINUING to happen. Try reading Revelation and come back and tell us the Prophecies foretold thousands of years ago, are just "coincident". Many of the Prophecies have happened, are currently happening, and are yet to happen. 2 out of 3......If I were you, I don't think I would +chance" the 3rd, without God.


Help me out. Give me a couple of prophecies out of Revelations that has come true subsequent to the Bible being written..

Hi Crusty,

The book of Revelation is prophecy which is yet to be fulfulled: the battle of Ezekiel, the Rapture, the Tribulation, the Millennial Kingdom, the Bema Seat Judgment, the Sheep and Goat Judgment, the Great White Throne Judgment, the New Jerusalem, the New Heaven and New Earth -- and Eternity. These are all End Time Events.

These you can take to the bank; but, I would do it soon -- for we do not know just how close we are to fulfillment. Now is the time to get on the winning team.

Sure, you can join with our atheist Friends and old Liberal Neal in scoffing; but, keep in mind that old saying, "He who laughs last -- laughs longest." Longest as in eternity.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 0_-_CROS_BIB
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by For The Least of These:
Based on my relationship with my Savior, (who by the way also died for you).
Based on a very well known Book of Life called the Holy Bible. In that Bible are stories and stories of history and prophecies that have all come to pass, and are CONTINUING to happen. Try reading Revelation and come back and tell us the Prophecies foretold thousands of years ago, are just "coincident". Many of the Prophecies have happened, are currently happening, and are yet to happen. 2 out of 3......If I were you, I don't think I would +chance" the 3rd, without God.


Help me out. Give me a couple of prophecies out of Revelations that has come true subsequent to the Bible being written..

Hi Crusty,

The book of Revelation is prophecy which is yet to be fulfilled: the battle of Ezekiel, the Rapture, the Tribulation, the Millennial Kingdom, the Bema Seat Judgment, the Sheep and Goat Judgment, the Great White Throne Judgment, the New Jerusalem, the New Heaven and New Earth -- and Eternity. These are all End Time Events.

These you can take to the bank; but, I would do it soon -- for we do not know just how close we are to fulfillment. Now is the time to get on the winning team.

Sure, you can join with our atheist Friends and old Liberal Neal in scoffing; but, keep in mind that old saying, "He who laughs last -- laughs longest." Longest as in eternity.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Bill, it's been years since I had a peek at Revelations. What I got out of it were rantings of the type one might hear from a person in a drug induced stupor at best or those of a raving lunatic at worst. Sorry, revelations goes next to my copy of Nostradamus and other bunk.

As I've noted before, if my choices are only the side you preach and the "other side". Then I choose common sense, enlightenment, and a relationship with God that doesn't require hating others and condemning them to hell (which doesn't exist, by the way).
Hi Crusty,

You tell me, "Bill, it's been years since I had a peek at Revelations. What I got out of it were rantings of the type one might hear from a person in a drug induced stupor at best or those of a raving lunatic at worst. Sorry, revelations goes next to my copy of Nostradamus and other bunk.

As I've noted before, if my choices are only the side you preach and the "other side". Then I choose common sense, enlightenment, and a relationship with God that doesn't require hating others and condemning them to hell (which doesn't exist, by the way)."


Let me address your statements in reverse. You say that, to you, hell does not exist; yet, in the Bible, Jesus talked more about hell than He did about heaven. Why would He do this -- if hell does not exist?

Second, you say, "I choose common sense, enlightenment, and a relationship with God that doesn't require hating others and condemning them to hell. . ."

In other words, you want a relationship with God that has no accountability. You want to live as you choose, enjoy the world as you like -- but, not worry about having to stand in judgment to account for your sins. You choose to live like hell -- for you are sure there is no hell, no accounting for what you do in this life. Sorry, my Friend, you will find that this is not a relationship with Jesus Christ; this is a relationship with the world. And, who rules the world? Satan. Therefore, instead of a relationship with Christ; you prefer a relationship with Satan. That is your choice; but, it is an eternally wrong choice.

Now, to your first statement: It is just a minor point; but it is the book of Revelation -- not Revelations. But, don't feel bad -- I have had to correct pastors on this also.

Revelation 1:1 tells us,"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John."

So, is Revelation a book of horror and the ravings of a lunatic? No. For the believer it is a book of joy; for it tells us that we will be taken out of this world, the Rapture, and taken, in our glorified, immortal bodies into heaven. There, we, the body of New Testament believers, will be the Bride of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. But, first we will stand before Jesus Christ at the Bema Seat Judgment; where we will receive our just rewards, or lack of rewards, for what we have done in the name of Christ during this lifetime. Our work will be tested by fire, the Word of God, and we are told, "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire" (1 Corinthians 3:15).

During the End Times, the Tribulation, the body of Christian believers, the church, will be in heaven. We will experience the Bema Seat Judgment (2 Corinthians 5:10); we will be the bride at the Wedding Feast of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-9); and, we shall return with Him when He returns to earth in glory (Revelation 19:11-16) to rule for one thousand years. For the believer, this is all joy.

Yet, for the non-believer, the End Times, the Tribulation, will be a time of extreme testing. It will not be a time of joy -- but, a time of sorrow, a time of suffering, and for many, a time of death. For those who become believers during the Tribulation; this will mean martyrdom; their ticket to heaven. For those who continue to deny Christ and God -- it will be a time of extreme suffering -- leading to an eternity of suffering. For the latter; the book of Revelation is indeed something to dread. But, for the believer, as I said -- it is a book of joy.

This is why we believers are so persistent is sharing the Gospel with everyone. We want the book of Revelation to be a book of joy for everyone. If we could, we would save every single person -- but, sadly, there will always be those who, to the very end, will still worship worldly things, worldly intelligence, worldly wisdom -- and reject the wisdom of God.

The apostle John tells of experiencing the presence of Jesus Christ, in Revelation 1:17-19, "When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things."

What does Jesus mean in this last sentence? The things which you have seen: He is telling John to write of the things he saw while walking with Jesus during His earthly ministry, and the things he has seen in the years since the crucifixion of Jesus -- until the time when John was imprisoned on the island of Patmos and received this revelation from the Angel of the Lord.

The things which are: The condition of the churches, now sixty years after the crucifixion of Jesus Christ -- some had stayed strong and prospered, some had weakened, some had gone astray. That is the reason for Jesus' letters to the Seven Churches. These seven churches, although there were many more, represented the seven conditions Jesus saw in the churches at that time. And, it represented conditions which He knew would grow in churches until He returns. These letters, in Revelation 2 and
3, are His warnings and His praises; depending upon which type of church you attend.

And the things which will take place after these things: Here, Jesus is talking about the End Times events which are described, starting in Revelation, chapter 6. You will notice that after chapter 5 (chapters 2 and 3 describe the condition of the churches; chapters 4 and 5 describe the rapture of the church, symbolized in John's being taken up, and the glory it experiences in heaven), the church is not mentioned again until chapter 19 when we read about the Wedding Feast of the Lamb and the Glorious Return of Jesus Christ to take His place on the throne of David for one thousand years, the Millennial Reign of Christ on earth. Then, eternity.

So, no, Crusty, the book of Revelation is not a writing which is comparable to the writings of Nostradamus or any other psychic, seer, or tarot card reader. This is the Word of God; this is the promise of God: heaven and glory for all who will, by grace through faith, believe in Jesus Christ -- or hell and suffering for those who persist in denying Christ and God. A single choice -- yet, one with eternal consequences. Choose wisely, my Friend.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 0_-_CROS_BIB-2_FAITH-1
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:

(Crusty, by now you hear Jesus calling your name, with an angelic choir in the background, asking to come into your life and heal you, and to bless your noggin and put any unholy thoughts right out of your head.

Are you sure that's not Elvis?

Nah, Crusty,

From what I saw and know of Elvis; I believe he is singing with the Heavenly Choir. The one you, Miami, Deep, Fish, and a few other Friends have chosen, so far, is the other team.

Most likely the song they will be singing is "It Will Be A Hot Time In The Old Town Tonight!"

Of course, you still have time to join the real team -- so that you do not end up on the Dead End Team.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill


Bill, I will never join your hateful team. Good luck on getting where you think you are going.

Have a blissed day.




No luck needed when you have faith Wink
quote:
Originally posted by 2_each_its_own:
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:

(Crusty, by now you hear Jesus calling your name, with an angelic choir in the background, asking to come into your life and heal you, and to bless your noggin and put any unholy thoughts right out of your head.

Are you sure that's not Elvis?

Nah, Crusty,

From what I saw and know of Elvis; I believe he is singing with the Heavenly Choir. The one you, Miami, Deep, Fish, and a few other Friends have chosen, so far, is the other team.

Most likely the song they will be singing is "It Will Be A Hot Time In The Old Town Tonight!"

Of course, you still have time to join the real team -- so that you do not end up on the Dead End Team.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill


Bill, I will never join your hateful team. Good luck on getting where you think you are going.

Have a blissed day.




No luck needed when you have faith Wink


Neither will do the hypocrite any good.

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