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Slowest economic growth in 4 years and the stock market is at an all time record high. I don't get it, the economy must be doing well, look at the Dow Jones. I don't get it. Well, Marketplace on National Public Radio does, and this is the explanation. http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2007/05/02/PM200705025.html
I know I stuck this on the forum three times now. But it is vital if there is to be a debate about Trickle Down Economics.
"The essence of all religions is one. Only their approaches are different." ~Mahatma Gandhi
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Eddie,

I'm going to make this simple. Money chases the best chances for investment. The US economy has slowed, but its doing better than most. French and German economies grew very little. Japan is doing better than in the past, but not stellar. Chinese economy is growing, but try to repatriate your profits and its a
barter system.

Investing in funds that follow the smaller tigers like Korea, Thailand, Taiwan and Ireland are a good bet, but can only absorb so much.

In short, US may be a little slow, but its one of the best shows in town.
Yes, money chases money and the fact that the money is leaving the US doesn't alarm or concern you shows where your patriotism stands, like the rest of the greedy corporate class, "In Your Portfolio."

America has sold out and many of us do care and we don't wrap the flag around ourselves to feign Patriotism.

This is the weakest recovery we have had and it is the average people who have been sold out and are suffering. As Ronald Reagan once pointed out if your suffering with no job it's a depression to you and millions are over worked and under paid and deep in debt. It will change when they finally wake up and realize their government, the media and the corporate class cares little for them and they will have to take charge of their own destiny.

It's the same with workers all over the world.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/27/business/27wire-econ.html

Economic Growth Slows to Weakest Pace in 4 Years - New York Times

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: April 27, 2007

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Economic growth slowed to a near crawl of 1.3 percent in the first three months of 2007, the worst performance in four years. The main culprit: the housing slump.

The fresh reading on gross domestic product, released by the Commerce Department this morning, was even weaker than the 2.5 percent growth rate logged in the final three months of last year. The new figures underscored just how much momentum the economy has been losing as it copes with the strain of the troubled housing market, which has made some businesses more cautious in their spending.

The first-quarter GDP figure was the weakest since a 1.2 percent pace registered in the opening quarter of 2003. GDP measures the value of all goods and services produced within the United States and is considered the best barometer of the country's economic fitness.
Pogo,

Playing possum again, are we?

As I explained, the reason the Dow rose to new heights is that US funds ARE STAYING IN THE US! Other alternatives are not as attractive, so investment funds are bidding up the price of US stocks.

Most EU leaders would sell their souls for a 1.3 percent annual growth, let alone first quarter -- usually the weakest during the year.

My portfolio is mainly for retirement as I wish to not rely on others. I invest no more than 10 to 15 percent in foreign funds.
Ed, the president usually has very little to do with the stock market. Data is and can be manipulated at the government or corporate level to suit a particular slant.

There are some sharp money managers/economists who have been around long enough and formed "circles of knowledge" with other trusted experts in the industry who give us a clearer insight to the true situation.

Here's a great example:

Financial Sense with Jim Puplava
I watch the market almost all day. The stocks I have survived the downturn and are looking better. I buy and sell almost everyday. If I buy at 38 and sell at 42 it makes my net beat the COI.
There's nothing better than being an old geezer and still be able to average 200 bucks a day while being pretty much homebound.
LOL, It only takes a little common since,and the desire to wade through the B.S. and find what you know about, and act upon what you know.S.C. it's like the old song you gotta know when to hold em and know when to fold em. Every day is different and one must learn to not to panic at the least little jingle. If one watches for a while it becomes easier.
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
Ed, the president usually has very little to do with the stock market. Data is and can be manipulated at the government or corporate level to suit a particular slant.

There are some sharp money managers/economists who have been around long enough and formed "circles of knowledge" with other trusted experts in the industry who give us a clearer insight to the true situation.

Here's a great example:

Financial Sense with Jim Puplava

Miamizsun, I did not say the Bonehead in Chief did. I don't think the article I posted did. I did not say this either, the article posted said it.

As the American Economy slows to a near stagnant growth rate, the money held by the beneficiaries of the Bush Tax Cuts is LEAVING the country at an alarming rate, It is leaving so fast that despite a slowdown in the American Economy the New York Stock Exchange Companies are doing just fine thank you. Not only is US Government borrowing financing Chinese economic growth, American corporate investment is adding to that growth, while the US is stagnating.

THE NEXT TIME YOU THINK TAX CUTS ARE GOOD FOR BUSINESS, THINK ABOUT THE ADDRESS OF THE WORKERS WHO ARE GETTING THE BENEFITS.
interventor:

I hate explaining economics to english and poli sci majors. Consumers buying chinese goods funds their expansion, The resulting cash is used to buy US treasury notes.

________________________________________________

Yes, China and other countries are buying up Treasury notes because the US is buying their cheap products. But the US is running out of credit, the dollar is slipping and as Robert Reich points out they are beginning to turn to European and other markets to buy their products.

We only get so much credit before the risk out wieghs the benefits. Our money won't be as valuable and it will be the end of cheap products.

With our maufacturing base decimated the average American is looking at hard times ahead.
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
Ed, the president usually has very little to do with the stock market. Data is and can be manipulated at the government or corporate level to suit a particular slant.

There are some sharp money managers/economists who have been around long enough and formed "circles of knowledge" with other trusted experts in the industry who give us a clearer insight to the true situation.

Here's a great example:

Financial Sense with Jim Puplava

Miamizsun, I did not say the Bonehead in Chief did. I don't think the article I posted did. I did not say this either, the article posted said it.

As the American Economy slows to a near stagnant growth rate, the money held by the beneficiaries of the Bush Tax Cuts is LEAVING the country at an alarming rate, It is leaving so fast that despite a slowdown in the American Economy the New York Stock Exchange Companies are doing just fine thank you. Not only is US Government borrowing financing Chinese economic growth, American corporate investment is adding to that growth, while the US is stagnating.

THE NEXT TIME YOU THINK TAX CUTS ARE GOOD FOR BUSINESS, THINK ABOUT THE ADDRESS OF THE WORKERS WHO ARE GETTING THE BENEFITS.


Ed, first, why did you take this personally? All I did was point out where people could get some good info. Second, the article specifically mentions Bush tax cuts as the culprit. Tax cuts are great for you, me and business. The problem is that the GOP & Democrats are spending way too much money. Tax cuts (cutting cash flow) in the face of increased spending are the kiss of death.

Listen to the link I posted.

The first hour and the Peter Schiff commentary directly addresses this issue.

Good Luck.
The president does set economic policy and the economy is set through the Federal Reserve. The chairman basically carries out the presidents economic policy.

The tax cuts did not really help the middle class. The lion's share went to the super wealthy who didn't really need them while the middle class basically got a week or two's extra paycheck. The costs to economy did not out weigh the benefits. The middle class is who needed the money.

The US spends too much on the military and especially the War in Iraq, which we can't even afford.
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
The president does set economic policy and the economy is set through the Federal Reserve. The chairman basically carries out the presidents economic policy.

The tax cuts did not really help the middle class. The lion's share went to the super wealthy who didn't really need them while the middle class basically got a week or two's extra paycheck. The costs to economy did not out weigh the benefits. The middle class is who needed the money.

The US spends too much on the military and especially the War in Iraq, which we can't even afford.


Go back and check your numbers concerning military spending. The military budget is a VERY SMALL portion of the US budget or GDP for that matter.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Southern Patriot

quote:

Originally posted by Pogo142:

The president does set economic policy and the economy is set through the Federal Reserve. The chairman basically carries out the presidents economic policy.

The tax cuts did not really help the middle class. The lion's share went to the super wealthy who didn't really need them while the middle class basically got a week or two's extra paycheck. The costs to economy did not out weigh the benefits. The middle class is who needed the money.

The US spends too much on the military and especially the War in Iraq, which we can't even afford.

________________________________________________________________________________________________

Go back and check your numbers concerning military spending. The military budget is a VERY SMALL portion of the US budget or GDP for that matter.

________________________________________________________________________________________________

The economy is growing but it doesn't mean the military budget has to grow also. The US Debt is also growing.

The military budget can and should be cut in half.

So far the Iraq war costs are heading up to a trillion dollars and it is estimated that it will cost two trillion. I know that's not what Bush says but he originally told us the first $70 Billion would be all that was needed when experts, found in the independent press, discounted that and said costs will be much higher. And it has been.

We spend a billion dollars a day in Iraq, which is not even included in the Military Budget.
quote:
Originally posted by interventor:
Eddie,

I'm going to make this simple. Money chases the best chances for investment. The US economy has slowed, but its doing better than most. French and German economies grew very little. Japan is doing better than in the past, but not stellar. Chinese economy is growing, but try to repatriate your profits and its a
barter system.

Investing in funds that follow the smaller tigers like Korea, Thailand, Taiwan and Ireland are a good bet, but can only absorb so much.

In short, US may be a little slow, but its one of the best shows in town.
And I am going to make this simple. THE SMART MONEY IS LEAVING THE US ECONOMY BECAUSE THE US ECONOMY IS IMPLODING.
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
Ed, the president usually has very little to do with the stock market. Data is and can be manipulated at the government or corporate level to suit a particular slant.

There are some sharp money managers/economists who have been around long enough and formed "circles of knowledge" with other trusted experts in the industry who give us a clearer insight to the true situation.

Here's a great example:

Financial Sense with Jim Puplava

Miamizsun, I did not say the Bonehead in Chief did. I don't think the article I posted did. I did not say this either, the article posted said it.

As the American Economy slows to a near stagnant growth rate, the money held by the beneficiaries of the Bush Tax Cuts is LEAVING the country at an alarming rate, It is leaving so fast that despite a slowdown in the American Economy the New York Stock Exchange Companies are doing just fine thank you. Not only is US Government borrowing financing Chinese economic growth, American corporate investment is adding to that growth, while the US is stagnating.

THE NEXT TIME YOU THINK TAX CUTS ARE GOOD FOR BUSINESS, THINK ABOUT THE ADDRESS OF THE WORKERS WHO ARE GETTING THE BENEFITS.


Ed, first, why did you take this personally? All I did was point out where people could get some good info. Second, the article specifically mentions Bush tax cuts as the culprit. Tax cuts are great for you, me and business. The problem is that the GOP & Democrats are spending way too much money. Tax cuts (cutting cash flow) in the face of increased spending are the kiss of death.

Listen to the link I posted.

The first hour and the Peter Schiff commentary directly addresses this issue.

Good Luck.
i took it personal, because I take being LIED TO PERSONAL.

you say, "Tax cuts are great for you, me and business."

BULL Excretions. Fair, equitable taxation is great for EVERYBODY, INCLUDING RICH FOLKS WHO GET TAXED HEAVILY ON MONEY THEY DON'T INVEST INSIDE THE USA. The get an incentive to invest inside the USA and the return on those investments, and WE ALL BENEFIT from the investments. Take away the tax stick and the investment does go where it gathers the most moss. These days that is in the growing economies of the China and Indonesia, it doesn't even go into Mexico, where increased US investment would reduce pressure on the Mexican Population to MOVE HERE and take the jobs that are not being created because American RICH FOLK are putting their money in CHINA.

Now perhaps you can be forgiven for LYING to me, because you have swallowed the LIES of the Fat Cats who own, the Republican Party, The news media and are TRYING to buy the Democratic party.

BUT THAT'S WHY I DO TAKE IT PERSONAL WHEN SOMEONE TRIES TO CONVINCE ME THAT A TAX CUT THAT GAVE ME LESS THAN HALF A WEEKS PAY IN REDUCTIONS AND PUT THE STORE DISPLAY COMPANY DOWN THE STREET OUT OF BUSINESS is good for me.
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
Ed, the president usually has very little to do with the stock market. Data is and can be manipulated at the government or corporate level to suit a particular slant.

There are some sharp money managers/economists who have been around long enough and formed "circles of knowledge" with other trusted experts in the industry who give us a clearer insight to the true situation.

Here's a great example:

Financial Sense with Jim Puplava

Miamizsun, I did not say the Bonehead in Chief did. I don't think the article I posted did. I did not say this either, the article posted said it.

As the American Economy slows to a near stagnant growth rate, the money held by the beneficiaries of the Bush Tax Cuts is LEAVING the country at an alarming rate, It is leaving so fast that despite a slowdown in the American Economy the New York Stock Exchange Companies are doing just fine thank you. Not only is US Government borrowing financing Chinese economic growth, American corporate investment is adding to that growth, while the US is stagnating.

THE NEXT TIME YOU THINK TAX CUTS ARE GOOD FOR BUSINESS, THINK ABOUT THE ADDRESS OF THE WORKERS WHO ARE GETTING THE BENEFITS.
Is this the article? Looking Abroad for Bargains It says the same thing as the Market Place report I posted, and it is from the Site YOU posted.
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
Ed, the president usually has very little to do with the stock market. Data is and can be manipulated at the government or corporate level to suit a particular slant.

There are some sharp money managers/economists who have been around long enough and formed "circles of knowledge" with other trusted experts in the industry who give us a clearer insight to the true situation.

Here's a great example:

Financial Sense with Jim Puplava

Miamizsun, I did not say the Bonehead in Chief did. I don't think the article I posted did. I did not say this either, the article posted said it.

As the American Economy slows to a near stagnant growth rate, the money held by the beneficiaries of the Bush Tax Cuts is LEAVING the country at an alarming rate, It is leaving so fast that despite a slowdown in the American Economy the New York Stock Exchange Companies are doing just fine thank you. Not only is US Government borrowing financing Chinese economic growth, American corporate investment is adding to that growth, while the US is stagnating.

THE NEXT TIME YOU THINK TAX CUTS ARE GOOD FOR BUSINESS, THINK ABOUT THE ADDRESS OF THE WORKERS WHO ARE GETTING THE BENEFITS.


Ed, first, why did you take this personally? All I did was point out where people could get some good info. Second, the article specifically mentions Bush tax cuts as the culprit. Tax cuts are great for you, me and business. The problem is that the GOP & Democrats are spending way too much money. Tax cuts (cutting cash flow) in the face of increased spending are the kiss of death.

Listen to the link I posted.

The first hour and the Peter Schiff commentary directly addresses this issue.

Good Luck.
i took it personal, because I take being LIED TO PERSONAL.

you say, "Tax cuts are great for you, me and business."

BULL Excretions. Fair, equitable taxation is great for EVERYBODY, INCLUDING RICH FOLKS WHO GET TAXED HEAVILY ON MONEY THEY DON'T INVEST INSIDE THE USA. The get an incentive to invest inside the USA and the return on those investments, and WE ALL BENEFIT from the investments. Take away the tax stick and the investment does go where it gathers the most moss. These days that is in the growing economies of the China and Indonesia, it doesn't even go into Mexico, where increased US investment would reduce pressure on the Mexican Population to MOVE HERE and take the jobs that are not being created because American RICH FOLK are putting their money in CHINA.

Now perhaps you can be forgiven for LYING to me, because you have swallowed the LIES of the Fat Cats who own, the Republican Party, The news media and are TRYING to buy the Democratic party.

BUT THAT'S WHY I DO TAKE IT PERSONAL WHEN SOMEONE TRIES TO CONVINCE ME THAT A TAX CUT THAT GAVE ME LESS THAN HALF A WEEKS PAY IN REDUCTIONS AND PUT THE STORE DISPLAY COMPANY DOWN THE STREET OUT OF BUSINESS is good for me.


Ed, let's stay on track here and please leave the personal attacks and assumed personal political beliefs at the door. If you've been paying attention you'll know I'm wise to the Democratic and Republican rhetoric. I don't trust either party.

Do you know the difference between corporatism (aka fascism) and capitalism? And historically have the Democrats ever proposed tax cuts? And why?

I have nothing against you personally, I'd just like to see you understand economics and capitalism a little better.

Regards, miamizsun

LINK
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
Ed, the president usually has very little to do with the stock market. Data is and can be manipulated at the government or corporate level to suit a particular slant.

There are some sharp money managers/economists who have been around long enough and formed "circles of knowledge" with other trusted experts in the industry who give us a clearer insight to the true situation.

Here's a great example:

Financial Sense with Jim Puplava

Miamizsun, I did not say the Bonehead in Chief did. I don't think the article I posted did. I did not say this either, the article posted said it.

As the American Economy slows to a near stagnant growth rate, the money held by the beneficiaries of the Bush Tax Cuts is LEAVING the country at an alarming rate, It is leaving so fast that despite a slowdown in the American Economy the New York Stock Exchange Companies are doing just fine thank you. Not only is US Government borrowing financing Chinese economic growth, American corporate investment is adding to that growth, while the US is stagnating.

THE NEXT TIME YOU THINK TAX CUTS ARE GOOD FOR BUSINESS, THINK ABOUT THE ADDRESS OF THE WORKERS WHO ARE GETTING THE BENEFITS.


Ed, first, why did you take this personally? All I did was point out where people could get some good info. Second, the article specifically mentions Bush tax cuts as the culprit. Tax cuts are great for you, me and business. The problem is that the GOP & Democrats are spending way too much money. Tax cuts (cutting cash flow) in the face of increased spending are the kiss of death.

Listen to the link I posted.

The first hour and the Peter Schiff commentary directly addresses this issue.

Good Luck.
i took it personal, because I take being LIED TO PERSONAL.

you say, "Tax cuts are great for you, me and business."

BULL Excretions. Fair, equitable taxation is great for EVERYBODY, INCLUDING RICH FOLKS WHO GET TAXED HEAVILY ON MONEY THEY DON'T INVEST INSIDE THE USA. The get an incentive to invest inside the USA and the return on those investments, and WE ALL BENEFIT from the investments. Take away the tax stick and the investment does go where it gathers the most moss. These days that is in the growing economies of the China and Indonesia, it doesn't even go into Mexico, where increased US investment would reduce pressure on the Mexican Population to MOVE HERE and take the jobs that are not being created because American RICH FOLK are putting their money in CHINA.

Now perhaps you can be forgiven for LYING to me, because you have swallowed the LIES of the Fat Cats who own, the Republican Party, The news media and are TRYING to buy the Democratic party.

BUT THAT'S WHY I DO TAKE IT PERSONAL WHEN SOMEONE TRIES TO CONVINCE ME THAT A TAX CUT THAT GAVE ME LESS THAN HALF A WEEKS PAY IN REDUCTIONS AND PUT THE STORE DISPLAY COMPANY DOWN THE STREET OUT OF BUSINESS is good for me.


Ed, let's stay on track here and please leave the personal attacks and assumed personal political beliefs at the door. If you've been paying attention you'll know I'm wise to the Democratic and Republican rhetoric. I don't trust either party.

Do you know the difference between corporatism (aka fascism) and capitalism? And historically have the Democrats ever proposed tax cuts? And why?

I have nothing against you personally, I'd just like to see you understand economics and capitalism a little better.

Regards, miamizsun

LINK
OK, lets stay on track. You quote a very famous Political and economic philosopher. At least you directed me to read his essay. Ludwig von Mises is one of the thinkers who, as almost all of economists, warns against the "Totalitarian Collective." It is a position that I agree with wholeheartedly. It is why I object so strenuously to being called a Communist. Communism, even as proposed by Marx, is totalitarian. Socialism is the same breed of beast.

The difficulty is that competing collectives are by definition not totalitarian. Collectivism can also be called unity. On the other side of the economic equation is the Fascist philosophy that "what is good for the corporation is good for the society." "Totalitarian Capitalism" is as bad for the individual as any form of totalitarian culture.

Von Mises says, "The utilitarian economist does not say: Fiat justitia, pereat mundus. (Fiat justice is sweet and pure) He says: Fiat justitia, ne pereat mundus.(Fiat Justice is not sweet or pure) He does not ask a man to renounce his well-being for the benefit of society. He advises him to recognize what his rightly understood interests are. In his eyes God's magnificence does not manifest itself in busy interference with sundry affairs of princes and politicians, but in endowing his creatures with reason and the urge toward the pursuit of happiness."

The thrust of what you and I are both driving at is that No Domination is Good Domination.
I don't think you and I part ways. Until you start on the tax and spend argument.

Money is power. Bush doctrine is requires power, and concentration of power. His tax policy, called a tax cut, is a means to the end of concentrating wealth, not disbursing it. The conservative position is that government has not right to interfere with the amassing of wealth. It is a reasonable position when joined with the idea that power dispersal IS the function of government. The motto, "Power to the People" has meaning. Its antithesis is "Power to the Corporation."

I make the distinction between people and corporation, not between people and Government advisedly. Government is the dispenser of justice. The great strength of our republican form of government is that it decides in a measured democratic way what justice is.

Taxation is a tool of justice. Justice demands an equitable tax code.

There is an old nursery rhyme on the subject,
quote:
Hark Hark,
the dogs do bark,
the beggars are coming to town,
Some in rags,
some in tags,
some in velvet gowns.


I know you have heard it, you may even have memorized it, but do you know what it means?

I am going to tell you anyway.

In old England the Monarch, as do all Monarchs needed to collect taxes. But he also needed to curry favor from the Church and the Aristocracy. What was left, with any money to pay taxes was tradespeople. We call them the "Middle Class" today. When you tax a tradesman beyond his ability to pay, you make a beggar of him.

That's what happened in England. The tradesmen were impoverished, still traveling from town to town they were dressed in rags, selling their wares (and dodging the tax man) well that tax collector, dressed in his velvet gown was never far behind the tradesman.

The problem I am having with you, specifically, and with some others, generally, is what I see as a failure to recognize that government provides services and infrastructure and a lot of benefit, and it has to be paid for. Taxes are necessary, just as roads and dams and armies are necessary.

My issue is not with taxes. It is with the justice of the tax system. The aristocracy benefits from the power granted to it by the government. They should be paying the cost of that government. Bush is an aristocrat. Born to power, or as once was said of him, "born with a silver foot in his mouth." He is supported by the Aristocracy. His policy is to benefit the aristocracy. The only people left to pay for the Monarchy (government) are you and me, unless you're an aristocrat.

You're correct tax cuts are the kiss of death for the democracy, not the aristocracy, in the face of expanded spending. The democracy dies from the impoverishment of the tradesmen. And it is happening as we speak.

One final thought. I am neither giving nor accepting personal financial advice. Please do not direct me to websites that "teach me how to become rich, or prosperous."

I am satisfied. I am secure. I am worried about us, the people of this country, not me, or you, or interventor or Southern Patriot. Like all liberals I think we should take care of our own needs, but we should not ignore the needs and contributions of others.
Ed, for the sake of posting I'm going to reply, but with a fresh post.

Austrian Economics boiled down is this: Sound money backed by gold. This is to prevent politicians and bankers from manipulating, printing (counterfeiting) and fractional reserve banking. Free market capitalism (don't confuse this with the fascist corporatism we see in the GOP & Dem parties puppet show) which career politicians are held accountable and don't/can't skew rules and regs in favor of their corporate buddies forming monopolies.

I think where we differ is that you have trust in government, current government. I don't. Just look at what they've done with the debt, deficit and unfunded liability. Clearly they can't handle money properly, so why would we give them more? I don't advocate digging the hole any deeper. I'll agree that we need some basic infrastructure, but do we want a bunch of criminals running the show?

The corporate control you see in America today is because of corrupt government, they're in bed together. (See lobbyists.)

I would consider a temporary tax specifically to address our financial disaster mentioned above, but only if politicians would stop their insane spending.

I am anti-warfare and anti-welfare. This doesn't mean anti-defense or anti-charity. It simply means we have to step up individually and accept personal responsibility for our own lives and the lives of our family members. Stop looking to the government to borrow or print money we can't repay to finance feel good programs we can't afford. Oh yeah, let's not forget the giant cut they take for themselves. All of this madness is unsustainable. Our tax revenue is going to a corrupt organized crime syndicate that puts the mafia to shame. We take their money, we take their power. You can take care of you and yours better than any politician. Believe in yourself and we might just save this country.
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
Ed, for the sake of posting I'm going to reply, but with a fresh post.

Austrian Economics boiled down is this: Sound money backed by gold. This is to prevent politicians and bankers from manipulating, printing (counterfeiting) and fractional reserve banking. Free market capitalism (don't confuse this with the fascist corporatism we see in the GOP & Dem parties puppet show) which career politicians are held accountable and don't/can't skew rules and regs in favor of their corporate buddies forming monopolies.

I think where we differ is that you have trust in government, current government. I don't. Just look at what they've done with the debt, deficit and unfunded liability. Clearly they can't handle money properly, so why would we give them more? I don't advocate digging the hole any deeper. I'll agree that we need some basic infrastructure, but do we want a bunch of criminals running the show?

The corporate control you see in America today is because of corrupt government, they're in bed together. (See lobbyists.)

I would consider a temporary tax specifically to address our financial disaster mentioned above, but only if politicians would stop their insane spending.

I am anti-warfare and anti-welfare. This doesn't mean anti-defense or anti-charity. It simply means we have to step up individually and accept personal responsibility for our own lives and the lives of our family members. Stop looking to the government to borrow or print money we can't repay to finance feel good programs we can't afford. Oh yeah, let's not forget the giant cut they take for themselves. All of this madness is unsustainable. Our tax revenue is going to a corrupt organized crime syndicate that puts the mafia to shame. We take their money, we take their power. You can take care of you and yours better than any politician. Believe in yourself and we might just save this country.
miami, check out the European Inflation resulting from the Spanish Gold discoveries in the New World. At one time Pepper corns were used for money. Salary comes from the Latin, sal, meaning salt. People were paid with, and based their monetary system on salt. Today's consumer economy is based on CREDIT.
It is not a matter of trusting government, it is trusting the reality that when I present a piece of paper that says ten dollars on it, I get product.
The government has been corrupted by Business. Business CANNOT SURVIVE CORRUPT MONEY.
I agree with the insane spending. It is insane, and hugely expensive to make war.
Taxes force us to step up and accept our responsibility for our society. NO TAXES, NO SOCIETY. The tax collector is the caveman with the biggest club.
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
Ed, for the sake of posting I'm going to reply, but with a fresh post.

Austrian Economics boiled down is this: Sound money backed by gold. This is to prevent politicians and bankers from manipulating, printing (counterfeiting) and fractional reserve banking. Free market capitalism (don't confuse this with the fascist corporatism we see in the GOP & Dem parties puppet show) which career politicians are held accountable and don't/can't skew rules and regs in favor of their corporate buddies forming monopolies.

I think where we differ is that you have trust in government, current government. I don't. Just look at what they've done with the debt, deficit and unfunded liability. Clearly they can't handle money properly, so why would we give them more? I don't advocate digging the hole any deeper. I'll agree that we need some basic infrastructure, but do we want a bunch of criminals running the show?

The corporate control you see in America today is because of corrupt government, they're in bed together. (See lobbyists.)

I would consider a temporary tax specifically to address our financial disaster mentioned above, but only if politicians would stop their insane spending.

I am anti-warfare and anti-welfare. This doesn't mean anti-defense or anti-charity. It simply means we have to step up individually and accept personal responsibility for our own lives and the lives of our family members. Stop looking to the government to borrow or print money we can't repay to finance feel good programs we can't afford. Oh yeah, let's not forget the giant cut they take for themselves. All of this madness is unsustainable. Our tax revenue is going to a corrupt organized crime syndicate that puts the mafia to shame. We take their money, we take their power. You can take care of you and yours better than any politician. Believe in yourself and we might just save this country.
miami, check out the European Inflation resulting from the Spanish Gold discoveries in the New World. At one time Pepper corns were used for money. Salary comes from the Latin, sal, meaning salt. People were paid with, and based their monetary system on salt. Today's consumer economy is based on CREDIT.
It is not a matter of trusting government, it is trusting the reality that when I present a piece of paper that says ten dollars on it, I get product.
The government has been corrupted by Business. Business CANNOT SURVIVE CORRUPT MONEY.
I agree with the insane spending. It is insane, and hugely expensive to make war.
Taxes force us to step up and accept our responsibility for our society. NO TAXES, NO SOCIETY. The tax collector is the caveman with the biggest club.


An end user tax is acceptable, something to pay for basic services. The problem is that we give the money to criminal politicians who are most definitely bought and paid for....zero accountability. Yet we will re-elect them over and over. As a nation, how stupid are we for this foolish behavior??? So under the guise of "helping us" our elect or selected officials are screwing us seven ways from Sunday....


Taxation on your labor is illegal.


The History of Money
Can't waste time with these people, Southern Pat., they're looking for a fight. If they can't get one here, they'll go down to the corner cafe and pick one with someone else. They want you to be impressed with their liberal arguments. No military or defense is good, taxes are good, the Dems are saints, blah, blah, blah. I'm out of here.
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
Ed, for the sake of posting I'm going to reply, but with a fresh post.

Austrian Economics boiled down is this: Sound money backed by gold. This is to prevent politicians and bankers from manipulating, printing (counterfeiting) and fractional reserve banking. Free market capitalism (don't confuse this with the fascist corporatism we see in the GOP & Dem parties puppet show) which career politicians are held accountable and don't/can't skew rules and regs in favor of their corporate buddies forming monopolies.

I think where we differ is that you have trust in government, current government. I don't. Just look at what they've done with the debt, deficit and unfunded liability. Clearly they can't handle money properly, so why would we give them more? I don't advocate digging the hole any deeper. I'll agree that we need some basic infrastructure, but do we want a bunch of criminals running the show?

The corporate control you see in America today is because of corrupt government, they're in bed together. (See lobbyists.)

I would consider a temporary tax specifically to address our financial disaster mentioned above, but only if politicians would stop their insane spending.

I am anti-warfare and anti-welfare. This doesn't mean anti-defense or anti-charity. It simply means we have to step up individually and accept personal responsibility for our own lives and the lives of our family members. Stop looking to the government to borrow or print money we can't repay to finance feel good programs we can't afford. Oh yeah, let's not forget the giant cut they take for themselves. All of this madness is unsustainable. Our tax revenue is going to a corrupt organized crime syndicate that puts the mafia to shame. We take their money, we take their power. You can take care of you and yours better than any politician. Believe in yourself and we might just save this country.
miami, check out the European Inflation resulting from the Spanish Gold discoveries in the New World. At one time Pepper corns were used for money. Salary comes from the Latin, sal, meaning salt. People were paid with, and based their monetary system on salt. Today's consumer economy is based on CREDIT.
It is not a matter of trusting government, it is trusting the reality that when I present a piece of paper that says ten dollars on it, I get product.
The government has been corrupted by Business. Business CANNOT SURVIVE CORRUPT MONEY.
I agree with the insane spending. It is insane, and hugely expensive to make war.
Taxes force us to step up and accept our responsibility for our society. NO TAXES, NO SOCIETY. The tax collector is the caveman with the biggest club.


An end user tax is acceptable, something to pay for basic services. The problem is that we give the money to criminal politicians who are most definitely bought and paid for....zero accountability. Yet we will re-elect them over and over. As a nation, how stupid are we for this foolish behavior??? So under the guise of "helping us" our elect or selected officials are screwing us seven ways from Sunday....


Taxation on your labor is illegal.


The History of Money
Taxation on INCOME IS NOT ILLEGAL. Taxation on labor may be, I have never heard of a "per hour worked tax." I think it would be impossible to collect. Maybe everyone should just pay a half dollar for every hour they are alive.
I don't have enough time to be taught the "history of money" by someone who does not acknowledge that money is a representation of value. It is a medium of exchange. Instead of bartering "two hours of Pushin' broom" for an "eight by twelve four bit room." We exchange two hours of pushin' broom for eight bits. If you cannot see the danger of putting the nation on a pure monetary standard, it is not my job to change your mind.

A life time of labor in exchange for a cot and three squares is a lifetime of slavery. I WANT TO BE PAID IN MONEY, NOT GOODS, EVEN IF THE GOODS ARE GOLD. What happens when the fella I want to buy a cot and three squares from has all the gold he can carry?
I looked at the sites, didn't have time to look at all of it but I'll check the rest out later. Interesting stuff, the video on the 16th amendment especially. Editing could be improved, but it was still interesting.

Ed, you should always find time to open your mind and see things from a different perspective.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
I looked at the sites, didn't have time to look at all of it but I'll check the rest out later. Interesting stuff, the video on the 16th amendment especially. Editing could be improved, but it was still interesting.

Ed, you should always find time to open your mind and see things from a different perspective.
Nash, I do have an open mind, but remember this salt was once the basis of money. Hence Salary. Pepper corns were once accepted for rent payments. The sudden influx of Gold into Spain in the 16th century nearly wiped out the economies of Italy, France and England because Gold was so easy for the Spanish to get hold of. Money is a means of exchange, it can be anything, INCLUDING A PROMISE TO PAY CURRENCY.
That is what borrowing is.

ALL OF THE ARGUMENT ABOUT MONETARY POLICY IS BULL, As is most of the argument about the "evil" bankers.

I am not wasting my time, listening to chicken little telling me I will starve if I don't have gold bars under my bed.
There is a difference between bartering for goods and services versus money/currency. If you and a friend have goods or services to exchange and both are better off for it, then good for you, trade or barter away. I encourage it.

However, you can't walk into Sears with 1640 pounds of lead, or 2 tons of salt and say: "I'll take that lawn mower." Gold backed bank notes were invented for the ease of convenience when bartering isn't an option. If you have salt and lead and Sears doesn't need the lead or salt. You trade for something they do need or will accept. Like a bank note backed by gold (universally desired) It is when the banker prints more notes (to loan) than he has gold on demand that we run into a problem, you and I call it counterfeiting, the fed bankers, who have your buddies in DC in their pocket cal it fractional reserve banking. The result is that you have money, printed right out of thin air, easy to manipulate, backed by faith of the counterfeiters (we'll just print more money if we need it) versus sound money backed by a hard asset recognized and desired by the entire planet. Research the Federal Reserve, the gold standard, and why it was abandoned and you'll see. When government wants to finance something it is a h3ll of a lot easier to have the fed "just print the money" and/or borrow it, than to raise taxes. This makes it easier for a politician's re-election as well. Who gets elected on a tax increase platform? Nobody, that's who.

I hope this helps folks understand....

Regards, miamizsun
Last edited by miamizsun
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
There is a difference between bartering for goods and services versus money/currency. If you and a friend have goods or services to exchange and both are better off for it, then good for you, trade or barter away. I encourage it.

However, you can't walk into Sears with 1640 pounds of lead, or 2 tons of salt and say: "I'll take that lawn mower." Gold backed bank notes were invented for the ease of convenience when bartering isn't an option. If you have salt and lead and Sears doesn't need the lead or salt. You trade for something they do need or will accept. Like a bank note backed by gold (universally desired) It is when the banker prints more notes (to loan) than he has gold on demand that we run into a problem, you and I call it counterfeiting, the fed bankers, who have your buddies in DC in their pocket cal it fractional reserve banking. The result is that you have money, printed right out of thin air, easy to manipulate, backed by faith of the counterfeiters (we'll just print more money if we need it) versus sound money backed by a hard asset recognized and desired by the entire planet. Research the Federal Reserve, the gold standard, and why it was abandoned and you'll see. When government wants to finance something it is a h3ll of a lot easier to have the fed "just print the money" and/or borrow it, than to raise taxes. This makes it easier for a politician's re-election as well. Who gets elected on a tax increase platform? Nobody, that's who.

I hope this helps folks understand....

Regards, miamizsun
You can't walk into sears with four ounces of gold and walk out with a riding mower either.
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
There is a difference between bartering for goods and services versus money/currency. If you and a friend have goods or services to exchange and both are better off for it, then good for you, trade or barter away. I encourage it.

However, you can't walk into Sears with 1640 pounds of lead, or 2 tons of salt and say: "I'll take that lawn mower." Gold backed bank notes were invented for the ease of convenience when bartering isn't an option. If you have salt and lead and Sears doesn't need the lead or salt. You trade for something they do need or will accept. Like a bank note backed by gold (universally desired) It is when the banker prints more notes (to loan) than he has gold on demand that we run into a problem, you and I call it counterfeiting, the fed bankers, who have your buddies in DC in their pocket cal it fractional reserve banking. The result is that you have money, printed right out of thin air, easy to manipulate, backed by faith of the counterfeiters (we'll just print more money if we need it) versus sound money backed by a hard asset recognized and desired by the entire planet. Research the Federal Reserve, the gold standard, and why it was abandoned and you'll see. When government wants to finance something it is a h3ll of a lot easier to have the fed "just print the money" and/or borrow it, than to raise taxes. This makes it easier for a politician's re-election as well. Who gets elected on a tax increase platform? Nobody, that's who.

I hope this helps folks understand....

Regards, miamizsun
You can't walk into sears with four ounces of gold and walk out with a riding mower either.
at least not legally. Wink
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
There is a difference between bartering for goods and services versus money/currency. If you and a friend have goods or services to exchange and both are better off for it, then good for you, trade or barter away. I encourage it.

However, you can't walk into Sears with 1640 pounds of lead, or 2 tons of salt and say: "I'll take that lawn mower." Gold backed bank notes were invented for the ease of convenience when bartering isn't an option. If you have salt and lead and Sears doesn't need the lead or salt. You trade for something they do need or will accept. Like a bank note backed by gold (universally desired) It is when the banker prints more notes (to loan) than he has gold on demand that we run into a problem, you and I call it counterfeiting, the fed bankers, who have your buddies in DC in their pocket cal it fractional reserve banking. The result is that you have money, printed right out of thin air, easy to manipulate, backed by faith of the counterfeiters (we'll just print more money if we need it) versus sound money backed by a hard asset recognized and desired by the entire planet. Research the Federal Reserve, the gold standard, and why it was abandoned and you'll see. When government wants to finance something it is a h3ll of a lot easier to have the fed "just print the money" and/or borrow it, than to raise taxes. This makes it easier for a politician's re-election as well. Who gets elected on a tax increase platform? Nobody, that's who.

I hope this helps folks understand....

Regards, miamizsun
You can't walk into sears with four ounces of gold and walk out with a riding mower either.


Which would be easier to carry? Four ounces of gold or several tons of salt? And which could be converted into cash easier? Which has the potential for greater increase in value? I don't see people storing salt or lead in safe deposit boxes? How much salt is in Fort Knox? Or valuing salt or lead like gold either....

How much salt do you have in your portfolio? And how's that working out for you?

When fiat currency, backed by the full faith and credit of people like Bush collapses, you can have the salt, and the green back, the lira or the peso, I'll take the gold and precious metals....

See "economic hit men" or "petro-dollar warfare" for an idea of how propped up our dollar is....
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
There is a difference between bartering for goods and services versus money/currency. If you and a friend have goods or services to exchange and both are better off for it, then good for you, trade or barter away. I encourage it.

However, you can't walk into Sears with 1640 pounds of lead, or 2 tons of salt and say: "I'll take that lawn mower." Gold backed bank notes were invented for the ease of convenience when bartering isn't an option. If you have salt and lead and Sears doesn't need the lead or salt. You trade for something they do need or will accept. Like a bank note backed by gold (universally desired) It is when the banker prints more notes (to loan) than he has gold on demand that we run into a problem, you and I call it counterfeiting, the fed bankers, who have your buddies in DC in their pocket cal it fractional reserve banking. The result is that you have money, printed right out of thin air, easy to manipulate, backed by faith of the counterfeiters (we'll just print more money if we need it) versus sound money backed by a hard asset recognized and desired by the entire planet. Research the Federal Reserve, the gold standard, and why it was abandoned and you'll see. When government wants to finance something it is a h3ll of a lot easier to have the fed "just print the money" and/or borrow it, than to raise taxes. This makes it easier for a politician's re-election as well. Who gets elected on a tax increase platform? Nobody, that's who.

I hope this helps folks understand....

Regards, miamizsun
You can't walk into sears with four ounces of gold and walk out with a riding mower either.


Which would be easier to carry? Four ounces of gold or several tons of salt? And which could be converted into cash easier? Which has the potential for greater increase in value? I don't see people storing salt or lead in safe deposit boxes? How much salt is in Fort Knox? Or valuing salt or lead like gold either....

How much salt do you have in your portfolio? And how's that working out for you?

When fiat currency, backed by the full faith and credit of people like Bush collapses, you can have the salt, and the green back, the lira or the peso, I'll take the gold and precious metals....

See "economic hit men" or "petro-dollar warfare" for an idea of how propped up our dollar is....
The easiest to carry is several sheets of paper. That is why we have MONEY.
How did I miss this thread until now? This is fun!

Ed, you started this discussion with a mention of Trickle Down Economics. About 55% of Americans are invested in the stock market, either directly or indirectly. The profits go straight to the neighborhood.

Miamaz, you are correct about fiat currency. The collapse of any fiat currency, including ours, is inevitable. It's just a matter of time.

DF
Everything in our Country right now doesn't make sense, ... We can ALL find websites that agree with what WE WANT them to say, or some of the Media who will say what we want to hear...

Bottom line is something we all already KNOW... we have the biggest deficit in the history of our Country, and still spending hand over fist on a war while borrowing from the top banks of our Country that are not even owned by this Country, but our Country borrows from them, DAILY... "look that up"... ...

The unemployment rate has dropped, good you say? Not really, it only means some people have drawn all they can and have dropped off the count... and now, due to all these "WONDERFUL" companies taking their business to other Nations overseas (Haliburton comes to mind) then people are being forced to take a job, ANY job, without benefits and their families are hurting bad. NO medical, NO dental... AND NO RETIREMENT!!!

This is the hard reality of this country... we talk alot about the big things, when the biggest thing here is like bluesman always talks about... children going hungry, and no coats in the wintertime, shoes too small because not enough money in the household to buy more... Now I am NOT talking about welfare households, I am talking about households who has gotten caught up in the lay-offs, attrition, and down-sizing... I am talking about people who THOUGHT they had a career now only has a menial job...

So the stock market is up???? Wonder how that happened... probably because the RICH is getting RICHER off the poor honest laid-off people, or the RICH is moving to another country, but lives here, and sells their stock here, and people are lapping it up... with NO regard whatsoever as to where the "HOME OFFICE" is located...

Our Country is broke and needs mending... heck, Without Tony Blair, I think even England will eventually tell us ta=ta...

People are in a bad state... around here it don't seem as bad, we go about our daily lives without a care in the world... when maybe, just MAYBE the family down the street is fixing to lose their home, thier vehicles and everything because the person who used to make 75 grand a year, is now making 12-15 grand... and WE THE PEOPLE are allowing that to happen... and we are even CHEERING IT ON...

WOW... I am definitely AMAZED!!!
quote:
And what is that money backed with?


Since we're off the gold standard, it's backed with the government's word basicly. Bankers will loan you what you ask for, then they make money out of thin air to give it to you, then you bust your butt paying them back or they get your house.

Easiest thing to do is bust your butt first, save up, then buy what you need. No interest, no debt, f--- the banks.

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