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You have murdered someone
You have committed adultery
You live a lifestyle of a prostitute
You married a heathen
You helped kill other Christians
You are very wise but foolish
You preached for 120 years with no converts
You had little faith
You spent most of your life in prison
You are wild at heart and
You lied to a king.
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quote:
Originally posted by ngt2293:
I honestly wonder if the churches of today would even allow the servants of the bible to even enter the church door.


While the clergy instructs their flocks to attend church regularly, many are not welcome in the eyes of God. Leviticus 21:16-23 provides a list of those who must stay away from God's altar. Apparently, God does not like people who have a blemish, are blind, or lame, or flat nosed, have a broken foot or broken hand; have an eye sore or a scab; or are dwarfs.

From Deuteronomy 23:1, 2 we find that, "He that is wounded in the stones [testicles], or hath his privy member [penis] cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord." Are inspections required at the church door? Bastards are not allowed in either, "even to his tenth generation."
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
quote:
Originally posted by ngt2293:
I honestly wonder if the churches of today would even allow the servants of the bible to even enter the church door.


While the clergy instructs their flocks to attend church regularly, many are not welcome in the eyes of God. Leviticus 21:16-23 provides a list of those who must stay away from God's altar. Apparently, God does not like people who have a blemish, are blind, or lame, or flat nosed, have a broken foot or broken hand; have an eye sore or a scab; or are dwarfs.

From Deuteronomy 23:1, 2 we find that, "He that is wounded in the stones [testicles], or hath his privy member [penis] cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord." Are inspections required at the church door? Bastards are not allowed in either, "even to his tenth generation."


David, none of those apply to the Christian church. If you have problems with those verses, you should take it up with people of the Jewish faith.

You're forgetting who Christ ministered to quite often. The handicapped, afflicted, and the unwanted.
quote:
Originally posted by Cookey:
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
David, none of those apply to the Christian church.


I was not aware that the Christian faith abandoned the Old Testament, Nash. I can't say I blame 'em but when did that happen?


It's not abandoned as you put it, it's not followed as law. It's the history of Christianity, providing the lineage and prophecy of Christ.
Nash, reckon how many times a person needs an extremely simple concept explained to them before they stop spewing inaccuracies? That has to be...oh, I don't know...the 50th time perhaps? Wink

You might be a bitter person if you are obsessed with criticizing Christians. Big Grin

Y'all all have a magnificent day! (((big fat hug)))
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
Originally posted by Cookey:
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
David, none of those apply to the Christian church.


I was not aware that the Christian faith abandoned the Old Testament, Nash. I can't say I blame 'em but when did that happen?


It's not abandoned as you put it, it's not followed as law. It's the history of Christianity, providing the lineage and prophecy of Christ.


Ahh, so you disagree with the Baptist and CoC churches who preach every sunday from all the books of the OT. They certainly seems to thing that the 10 Commandments are still important. Genesis is, of course, the literal truth to them (and was to you a short time ago). Most Christisns consider the Holy book as the inerrant word of God.

So you are dumping all that, Nash? Be careful, the Bloviator is awaiting to pass judgment upon you.
Nash,

We all know quite well that the scribes who wrote of Jesus took quite a few liberties to ensure that he fulfilled prophecies. The tortured lineage of Mary, at best a fiction, was included to establish JC's bona fides.


Now in other news. The current issue of SKEPTIC magazine has, as it's thematic article, an unflattering critique of the movie Zeitgeist. You know the one, the one that explains christianity in terms of astrology. It's written by Tim Callahan, a skeptical but honest bible scholar. Point for you.

DF
"You're forgetting who Christ ministered to quite often. The handicapped, afflicted, and the unwanted."--Nash.

I am wll aware that Christ, with great fanfare, allegedy put on some pretty good magic shows. I am not aware that he actually ministered to the handicapped, afflicted and unwanted. Disease, physical and mental handicaps, and intolerance were as prevalent during and after Christ's alleged ministering as before.

"David, none of those apply to the Christian church. If you have problems with those verses, you should take it up with people of the Jewish faith."

Are we to assume that God suddenly changed his mind about who was to appear before him? This is impossible. I have it on inerrant authority that he wouldn't change his intolerance for the blind, dwarfs, etc. "For I am the Lord, I change not;"
quote:
Originally posted by Cookey:
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
Originally posted by Cookey:
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
David, none of those apply to the Christian church.


I was not aware that the Christian faith abandoned the Old Testament, Nash. I can't say I blame 'em but when did that happen?


It's not abandoned as you put it, it's not followed as law. It's the history of Christianity, providing the lineage and prophecy of Christ.


Ahh, so you disagree with the Baptist and CoC churches who preach every sunday from all the books of the OT. They certainly seems to thing that the 10 Commandments are still important. Genesis is, of course, the literal truth to them (and was to you a short time ago). Most Christisns consider the Holy book as the inerrant word of God.

So you are dumping all that, Nash? Be careful, the Bloviator is awaiting to pass judgment upon you.


Christ reaffirmed the 10 Commandments, not only that but he combined them all into two very simple ones. That's why they are still important, Christ reaffirmed them.

I'm not Baptist or CoC, I don't care what they do. However, there is a difference between teaching from the OT and putting those laws into effect. As Joy said, this has been explained to you in depth many, many times.
quote:
I am wll aware that Christ, with great fanfare, allegedy put on some pretty good magic shows. I am not aware that he actually ministered to the handicapped, afflicted and unwanted.


You should try reading the New Testament sometime then, instead of trying to dig up ugly verses to attack Christianity with from the Old Testament.
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
[QUOTE]I am well aware that Christ, with great fanfare, allegedy put on some pretty good magic shows. I am not aware that he actually ministered to the handicapped, afflicted and unwanted.


quote:
You should try reading the New Testament sometime then, instead of trying to dig up ugly verses to attack Christianity with from the Old Testament.


Nash, I have read the NT over and over. And believe me, it is replete with ugly verses. I will be glad to provide you with a very ugly list if you would like. Then you can shout, "You hate Jesus."

In the meantime why don't you address the issue?
Other than in isolated incidents of grandstanding in front of a crowd, show me where Christ demonstrated a genuine concern for the handicapped, afflicted and unwanted. If he had the power to cure, heal and institute tolerance for a select few, why didn't he cure diseases, e.g., leprosy, feed the poor (not just a wedding party) and bring brotherly love to the world?
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
Christ reaffirmed the 10 Commandments,


Here are a few Commandments. I'm curious if Jesus reaffirmed ALL of them or just some?

Exodus says to "Take care not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you are going, or it will become a snare among you. You shall tear down their altars, break their pillars, and cut down their sacred poles."

I'm curious how you abided by that commandment without breaking any property laws?

What about For six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; Have you ever played a game of baseball or drank a beer on Sunday (or Saturday)? I sure hope not.

You shall observe the festival of weeks, the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year.

I don't even know what this one is, Nash. But do you observe it? I sure hopes so, man. The price for breaking a commandment is . . . Well, kinda rough.

you shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven, and the sacrifice of the festival of the passover shall not be left until the morning.

So what do you sacrifice in the morning of the passover?

This one is a little strange: You shall not boil a kid in its mother’s milk.

What do you make of that one, Nash?

The "graven images" C'ment says, You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me,

So do you support this "3rd and 4th generation" punishment policy? I can see perhaps one or two generations but people who piss me off got what's coming to them. But 4th generation? Seriously?
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
[QUOTE]I am well aware that Christ, with great fanfare, allegedy put on some pretty good magic shows. I am not aware that he actually ministered to the handicapped, afflicted and unwanted.


quote:
You should try reading the New Testament sometime then, instead of trying to dig up ugly verses to attack Christianity with from the Old Testament.


Nash, I have read the NT over and over. And believe me, it is replete with ugly verses. I will be glad to provide you with a very ugly list if you would like. Then you can shout, "You hate Jesus."

In the meantime why don't you address the issue?
Other than in isolated incidents of grandstanding in front of a crowd, show me where Christ demonstrated a genuine concern for the handicapped, afflicted and unwanted. If he had the power to cure, heal and institute tolerance for a select few, why didn't he cure diseases, e.g., leprosy, feed the poor (not just a wedding party) and bring brotherly love to the world?


Because he wanted his followers to do those things. And yes I will admit as his follower I fail at that but that's my fault not his.
Hi David,

You tell us, "Other than in isolated incidents of grandstanding in front of a crowd, show me where Christ demonstrated a genuine concern for the handicapped, afflicted and unwanted. If he had the power to cure, heal and institute tolerance for a select few, why didn't he cure diseases, e.g., leprosy, feed the poor (not just a wedding party) and bring brotherly love to the world?"

On the outskirts of Jerusalem, on a tiny hill named Calvary or, by some, known as Golgotha -- He died so that you, I, and all the people ever born on earth, can have the opportunity to be spiritually saved and live eternally with God. Now, I am not sure about your standards; but, when a man will die just for me -- I do consider that genuine concern.

True, He does not always heal those with physical infirmities; but, He will always heal them spiritually -- if they want to be healed.

God will use our illnesses and hardships often to bring about a greater good. Recently, I have been reading the book "You Mean The Bible Teaches That..." by Charles Caldwell Ryrie. In the book, the author gives us several examples of an affliction actually being a blessing in disguise. In the New Testament, John 9, we read the story of Jesus healing the blind man -- and over the centuries, God has been glorified and many have been healed, spiritually and physically, because of this man's infirmity and the testimony of his healing by Jesus Christ.

The author gives a more recent example of blessings coming from a physical affliction. On page 91, the author tells of a child who was born retarded. In "You Mean The Bible Teaches That..." by Charles Caldwell Ryrie, we read:

The point is simply this: a defective child may be the direct gift of God to a family as an instrument for the greater glory of God. An amazing present-day illustration of this is related in the book "Melissa Comes Home." A retarded child born into the Krentel home became the means of leading her parents to establish a home for such children, involving many miracles from the Lord and blessing to many families. And as the story has become more widely known, God has been more widely glorified, all because of the gift of a retarded child to a believing family.

Now, David, I realize that you will attempt to turn these examples upside down and claim that God just wants to be glorified and worshiped. Well, in a sense, you are right. The eternal sovereign God does want to be glorified and worshiped -- but, have you ever wondered why? When God is glorified, as in these two examples -- many, many people learn of what He has brought about, the events which glorified Him -- and, because of these, they seek salvation in Him. Through His glorification; millions, possibly billions, have been spiritually reborn and have gained eternal life with God. How can that be a bad thing?

David, you claim to have read the Bible many times. Yet, you, in your antagonistic secular/atheist frame of mind, were only reading words written on paper -- and never seeing beyond that. You have never opened your heart and your mind at the same time; to see beyond the ink and paper. And, I suspect the reason is the same as with most other secularists and atheists -- you are afraid of having to be held accountable to anyone other than yourself. You live in your little secular cocoon; dwelling in your own supposed intelligence -- afraid to open your heart and your mind to anyone or anything beyond that cocoon.

One day, David, whether you want to accept it now or not -- you will stand before God, Jesus Christ, and have to answer for your life on earth. And, your foolish supposition, "What if I don't want to be there?" -- will have no credence, no effect. You WILL be there, in judgment. Today, you have a choice of which judgment you will experience: Either the Bema Seat Judgment where all believers will stand before Jesus Christ to attain their rewards, their blessings, in heaven. Or, the Great White Throne Judgment -- a judgment of ALL non-believers (and, yes, David, that does mean you, in your present spiritual condition -- unless you do a 180 degree turn and follow Him) to eternal life with Satan in hell. The good news, David, is that you still have time. Until you breathe that last breath; you still have time to turn to Him for salvation.

David, you WILL be held accountable to Him -- either today -- or then. You get to choose when and where; but, my Friend, do it soon for none of us know when that last breath will occur.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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"One day, David, whether you want to accept it now or not -- you will stand before God, Jesus Christ, and have to answer for your life on earth."

And boy, will I give them an earfull. They have done tremendous mental and physical damage by butting into the affairs of men. Is is as dispicable as Hitler butting into the affairs of the German people.

Bill, don't you get tired of making excuses for Christ's ineptitude as a teacher? Stop blaiming it on humankind. The guy had very little to say that was worthwhile, and he had no teaching skills.
quote:
Originally posted by Cookey:
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
Christ reaffirmed the 10 Commandments,


Here are a few Commandments. I'm curious if Jesus reaffirmed ALL of them or just some?

Exodus says to "Take care not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you are going, or it will become a snare among you. You shall tear down their altars, break their pillars, and cut down their sacred poles."

I'm curious how you abided by that commandment without breaking any property laws?

What about For six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; Have you ever played a game of baseball or drank a beer on Sunday (or Saturday)? I sure hope not.

You shall observe the festival of weeks, the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year.

I don't even know what this one is, Nash. But do you observe it? I sure hopes so, man. The price for breaking a commandment is . . . Well, kinda rough.

you shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven, and the sacrifice of the festival of the passover shall not be left until the morning.

So what do you sacrifice in the morning of the passover?

This one is a little strange: You shall not boil a kid in its mother’s milk.

What do you make of that one, Nash?

The "graven images" C'ment says, You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me,

So do you support this "3rd and 4th generation" punishment policy? I can see perhaps one or two generations but people who piss me off got what's coming to them. But 4th generation? Seriously?


Those are not commandments except for the last one. Since I've already addressed why Christians do not follow those old laws many times, I won't repeat myself again.

As for the last one, not worshiping idols, Jesus summed it up by saying "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment."

It's also basic Christianity that Christ died in our place. That answers your question about the punishment of generations as mentioned in the OT.

Again, all of this has been explained many times over. You're trying to disprove theology with theology, isn't that circular reasoning?
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
[QUOTE]I am well aware that Christ, with great fanfare, allegedy put on some pretty good magic shows. I am not aware that he actually ministered to the handicapped, afflicted and unwanted.


quote:
You should try reading the New Testament sometime then, instead of trying to dig up ugly verses to attack Christianity with from the Old Testament.


Nash, I have read the NT over and over. And believe me, it is replete with ugly verses. I will be glad to provide you with a very ugly list if you would like. Then you can shout, "You hate Jesus."

In the meantime why don't you address the issue?
Other than in isolated incidents of grandstanding in front of a crowd, show me where Christ demonstrated a genuine concern for the handicapped, afflicted and unwanted. If he had the power to cure, heal and institute tolerance for a select few, why didn't he cure diseases, e.g., leprosy, feed the poor (not just a wedding party) and bring brotherly love to the world?


John 9: 1-25
Matthew 9:1-8
Matt 14:13-21
Luke 17:11-19
James 2: 15-16
Matthew 25:31-26

Here is a good site to look up all those verses with. I can provide more if you need them.

Link
Hi Nash,

And, another good site for finding Bible passages is Link -- the Blue Letter Bible web site.

This site allows you to view Scripture verses from 12 different English translations (plus translations in Spanish, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin at the same time); or to choose to read a passage from any one of those translations.

It also offers commentaries and the Strong's Concordance for all the Bible.

I have found this site to be a great resource for my writings.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
"One day, David, whether you want to accept it now or not -- you will stand before God, Jesus Christ, and have to answer for your life on earth."

And boy, will I give them an earfull. They have done tremendous mental and physical damage by butting into the affairs of men. Is is as dispicable as Hitler butting into the affairs of the German people.

Bill, don't you get tired of making excuses for Christ's ineptitude as a teacher? Stop blaiming it on humankind. The guy had very little to say that was worthwhile, and he had no teaching skills.

Hi David,

Yes, that day will be interesting. However, I have to excuse myself -- I will not be there for YOUR day in court. I will preparing for my trip into eternity with the Lord. So, let me wish you a fond adieu and adios now. It does appear that you have already punched your own ticket on that downward train.

Too bad, the Glory Train will be much more comfortable -- and eternally sweeter.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
Nash, What would you say if the Beatitudes were not original to Jesus? This is one of several I've seen, from sources interested more in history than polemics, that suggests the Sermon on the Mount was not original. DF

Hi Deep,

Dig deep enough in the barnyard and you can find almost anything your little heart desires; as I am sure you already know.

Regardless if what you find in your barnyard; the Bible is the Word of God -- and all your atheist trashing will not change this one bit.

But, keep digging. If you dig far enough; you might even find Darwin there.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
This one is a little strange: You shall not boil a kid in its mother’s milk.

What do you make of that one, Nash?


The accepted application of that talmudic commandment is, thou shalt not eat a cheeseburger. Held rather strenuously by orthodox Jews.

And they were talking about a baby goat; not a, you know, child. I'm pretty sure you had that already, though.

Just trying to help.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
Those are not commandments except for the last one. Since I've already addressed why Christians do not follow those old laws many times, I won't repeat myself again.


These ARE commandments, Nash. Don't you ever read the book you base your religion upon? In fact, there are about 18 commandments spread over three different books. Most of the ones I mentioned up there were from Exodus.

No, you haven't explained why Christian follow some old rules yet ignore others and the process used to determine which to follow. No, you certainly have not.
quote:
Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
quote:
This one is a little strange: You shall not boil a kid in its mother’s milk.

What do you make of that one, Nash?


(they) were talking about a baby goat; not a, you know, child. I'm pretty sure you had that already, though.

Just trying to help.


Of course. It still comes off as strange, though. Its one of they many reason the Bible can be such an interesting read. One can only wonder what may have transpired that required the lord (or Jewish leaders) to issue this command.
quote:
Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
Can one be a christian and follow the teachings of Buddha, as well?
The Buddhists do not regard Buddha as a God. Therefore they say you can be of any religion and practice Buddhism. I have spent a cumulative total of three weeks at Green Gluch Zen Farm observing how Christianity should be practiced. But, I ask "If Buddha is not a god, why do you bow to him? BTW, the setting is gorgeous and the gourmet vegetarian food is great!
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
It's not abandoned as you put it, it's not followed as law.


So you've back-peddled by stating that the 10 Commandments have been summarized into the two that Jesus gives as the greatest commandments. The ethical delimmas that this raises are beyond calculation.

I keep having problems with God the omnipotent writing a book and then later amending it, all the while leaving in the blatent inconsistencies and contradictions of the older work.
Last edited by CrustyMac
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
L,

If you want to read it, buy the magazine. It won't kill you.

See, I subscribe to SKEPTIC. Perhaps I should buy the Sheffield Library a subscription.

DF


If I can find it in redneckville, I will. You forget DF, this is the backwards world here.


Look in the fiction section, it is likely to be there right beside Darwin.
quote:
Originally posted by ngt2293:
You have murdered someone
You have committed adultery
You live a lifestyle of a prostitute
You married a heathen
You helped kill other Christians
You are very wise but foolish
You preached for 120 years with no converts
You had little faith
You spent most of your life in prison
You are wild at heart and
You lied to a king.


Pretty much true. Of course your also could be an:

Atheist
Demarcate
Republican
School teacher
Plumber
Roofer
Auto Mechanic
Car Salesman
Realtor
Doctor
Sailor
Pilot
Lawyer........ (Well maybe not lawyer)
quote:
Originally posted by bluefishbeagle:
quote:
Originally posted by Netracer41:

Where is any proof of a single word written in the Bible? There is none. It is a work of fiction.


If you do not understand the book then it was not written to you or for you, that does not mean it is not understood by others to whom understanding is given.


Exactly. Its called spiritual discernment. The atheists are not capable of understanding Christian logic because they have refused the Gift.
quote:
Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
Is christian logic different from, say, logical logic?


Absolutely. For example, I'll bet that the following makes no sense to you but makes perfect sense to one with the gift of Christian Logic:

"Being an atheist makes no sense because EVERYTHING requires a creator. That creator is God. God requires no creator."
Originally posted by Dawkins7:
quote:
"Being an atheist makes no sense because EVERYTHING requires a creator. That creator is God. God requires no creator."


I have a graph that proves green unicorns require no creator. Hence, I cannot accept the statement, "Everything requires a creator except God." I would be fascinated to learn more about this subject. Can you provide me with a source of information for this topic, without quoting the Bible.
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
Originally posted by Dawkins7:
quote:
"Being an atheist makes no sense because EVERYTHING requires a creator. That creator is God. God requires no creator."


I have a graph that proves green unicorns require no creator. Hence, I cannot accept the statement, "Everything requires a creator except God." I would be fascinated to learn more about this subject. Can you provide me with a source of information for this topic, without quoting the Bible.


Sounds like the question of primacy. Which comes first, consciousness or existence? Rational logic dictates that the answer is existence. Yet is that all there is? Each person will have to conclude that for themselves.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
But mark, this a scientific question. We don't get to choose for ourselves whether geocentrism is real.

There is an answer.

DF


Actually it is a philosophical question, and you do get to choose which you think is correct. You either accept that science can currently explain everything (which it cannot), or you accept the premise that "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." When modern science knows everything, even beyond the grand unified field theory, then maybe it will be a scientific question. I just don't have that much faith, yes, faith in the state of science.
Hi Skeptik,

Looking at your new tag line: "The Hard Work of One does more than the Prayers of Millions" -- I agree, but with just a couple of minor modifications.

It would be more truthful if it read: "The Hard Work of One CHRISTIAN does more than the Prayers of Millions of ATHEISTS."

Now, that has the ring of truth to it.

Or we could make it read: "The Earnest Prayer of One CHRISTIAN does more than the Rhetoric of Millions of ATHEISTS."

Try one of these new tag lines. It will make folks believe you have finally come to your senses.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Sounds like the question of primacy. Which comes first, consciousness or existence? Rational logic dictates that the answer is existence.


Modern biology indicates that all traits evolved in infintessimally small leaps and starts. It makes sense only if you understand the bare basics of evolution.


quote:
You either accept that science can currently explain everything (which it cannot), or you accept the premise that "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,


I certainly accept that science is fully capable of explaining "everything" given enough time. We've only had the tools of science for about 500 years and look how much we have discovered thus far.

Would you believe that the common wisdom was that man evolved from a block of clay and woman was cloned from the rib of a man? Why didn't they just make another woman out another bit of clay? Why the invasive surgery on Adam?

Would you believe that we once thought that all life on earth was extinguished during a Great Flood except from one boat that held every single land animal that ever existed including dinosaurs (including over 200,000 different types of beetles alone!) . . . Stop laughing. Seriously! This was accept as fact!

Would you believe that people used to think that snakes could talk? . . . Wait a minute, I think we just completed a thread on this and some people do still believe that so scratch that. We've got work to do.

Getting rid of ancient superstitions and illogical dogma would go a long ways towards our enlightenment.

In any case, there is no reason to believe that the biggest questions we have no will be answered as long as we don't destroy ourselves by our own ignorance.

The past 500 years proves that.
quote:
Originally posted by Dawkins7:
quote:
Sounds like the question of primacy. Which comes first, consciousness or existence? Rational logic dictates that the answer is existence.


Modern biology indicates that all traits evolved in infintessimally small leaps and starts. It makes sense only if you understand the bare basics of evolution.


quote:
You either accept that science can currently explain everything (which it cannot), or you accept the premise that "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,


I certainly accept that science is fully capable of explaining "everything" given enough time. We've only had the tools of science for about 500 years and look how much we have discovered thus far.


So, in essence you have faith in science. I know you will deny that word, but use "confidence" instead to ease your mind

quote:
Originally posted by Dawkins7:Would you believe that the common wisdom was that man evolved from a block of clay and woman was cloned from the rib of a man? Why didn't they just make another woman out another bit of clay? Why the invasive surgery on Adam?

Would you believe that we once thought that all life on earth was extinguished during a Great Flood except from one boat that held every single land animal that ever existed including dinosaurs (including over 200,000 different types of beetles alone!) . . . Stop laughing. Seriously! This was accept as fact!

Would you believe that people used to think that snakes could talk? . . . Wait a minute, I think we just completed a thread on this and some people do still believe that so scratch that. We've got work to do.

Getting rid of ancient superstitions and illogical dogma would go a long ways towards our enlightenment.

In any case, there is no reason to believe that the biggest questions we have no will be answered as long as we don't destroy ourselves by our own ignorance.

The past 500 years proves that.


First off, I don't accept in any form the notion of "common wisdom" or "common sense". There is no such thing. What wisdom or sense there is in the world is far too UNcommon.

Have you ever heard of the word allegory?

Here's the thing, I used to be one of you guys, an unbeliever. Rational logic decrees that the primacy of all things is existence. Consciousness can not come first, because without existence, what would there be to be conscious of? How could there be a god that exists outside of existence? Since existence, i.e. the world and the universe must come before anything including a god? Therefore there can be no such god.

Then I began to read "The Elegant Universe" by string theorist Brian Green. String theory, whether any of the scientists would ever admit it or not, opens up infinite possibilities. Infinite possibilities. Now after some time considering infinite possibilities, I began to encounter situations that are not logically explainable, and no I will not elaborate. After one such dramatic encounter, I was enlightened by just a glimpse of a very small part of a larger picture. My life has since been changed and I can not imagine for a second how I lived even as long as I did as a lost being.

As for "creation" I'm not a stickler on that one, one way or the other. Yet as for the existence of G-D I have zero doubt that he exists. So go ahead, I'm calling all atheists, pile on, tell me of your Flying Spaghetti Monster and any other forms of ridicule you care to heap on, it is no burden for me. I would ask that in the midst of the ridicule, what is it that you are trying to accomplish?
quote:
Here's the thing, I used to be one of you guys, an unbeliever. Rational logic decrees that the primacy of all things is existence. Consciousness can not come first, because without existence, what would there be to be conscious of? How could there be a god that exists outside of existence? Since existence, i.e. the world and the universe must come before anything including a god? Therefore there can be no such god.

Then I began to read "The Elegant Universe" by string theorist Brian Green. String theory, whether any of the scientists would ever admit it or not, opens up infinite possibilities. Infinite possibilities. Now after some time considering infinite possibilities, I began to encounter situations that are not logically explainable, and no I will not elaborate. After one such dramatic encounter, I was enlightened by just a glimpse of a very small part of a larger picture. My life has since been changed and I can not imagine for a second how I lived even as long as I did as a lost being.

As for "creation" I'm not a stickler on that one, one way or the other. Yet as for the existence of G-D I have zero doubt that he exists. So go ahead, I'm calling all atheists, pile on, tell me of your Flying Spaghetti Monster and any other forms of ridicule you care to heap on, it is no burden for me. I would ask that in the midst of the ridicule, what is it that you are trying to accomplish?


Excellent post.
quote:
Originally posted by marksw59:
quote:
Originally posted by Dawkins7:

I certainly accept that science is fully capable of explaining "everything" given enough time. We've only had the tools of science for about 500 years and look how much we have discovered thus far.


So, in essence you have faith in science. I know you will deny that word, but use "confidence" instead to ease your mind


Why, yes, that's exactly the word I would use. The same word you thought I would use. I'm glad you recognize the difference.

Yes, my "confidence" is based on 500 years of observable progress that science has brought to us. It has not a damm thing to do with faith and everything to do with observable, verifiable facts, logic and reason.

quote:
Here's the thing, I used to be one of you guys, an unbeliever. Rational logic decrees that the primacy of all things is existence. Consciousness can not come first, because without existence, what would there be to be conscious of? How could there be a god that exists outside of existence? Since existence, i.e. the world and the universe must come before anything including a god? Therefore there can be no such god.


Mark, that whole paragraph is one long non-sequitur. If you based your disbelief on this, no wonder you have embraced the irrational.

This is a statement based on your refusal to study the theories on how things came to be. There are rational, logical, mathematically justifiable ways of discerning these things. No Great Boogyman In the Sky is necessary.

quote:
Then I began to read "The Elegant Universe" by string theorist Brian Green. String theory, whether any of the scientists would ever admit it or not, opens up infinite possibilities. Infinite possibilities. Now after some time considering infinite possibilities, I began to encounter situations that are not logically explainable, and no I will not elaborate. After one such dramatic encounter, I was enlightened by just a glimpse of a very small part of a larger picture. My life has since been changed and I can not imagine for a second how I lived even as long as I did as a lost being.


Ahh, here we have Nash's perennial "People change, therefore god exists!"

I'm not sure I understand you point for being here if you don't want to share what it is you believe and why you believe it. You experience some mystical "something" that you refused to describe. You have had "situations" that you can't explain. If it is so logical and "real" to you, it should be just as logical and real to me.

There is nothing in my experience that I will not logically explain and clarify for you. All I ask if the same of you. This "I had some stuff happen to be that I'm not going to tell you about but you better trust me because your immortal soul is at stake" is just silly. Fess up!

quote:
I would ask that in the midst of the ridicule, what is it that you are trying to accomplish?


To spread the disease of reason and rational thought and hearty debate. No more or less.

No one has ever committed evil because they were thinking too rationally, ya know.
quote:
Originally posted by marksw59:
First off, I don't accept in any form the notion of "common wisdom" or "common sense". There is no such thing. What wisdom or sense there is in the world is far too UNcommon.

Have you ever heard of the word allegory?

Here's the thing, I used to be one of you guys, an unbeliever. Rational logic decrees that the primacy of all things is existence. Consciousness can not come first, because without existence, what would there be to be conscious of? How could there be a god that exists outside of existence? Since existence, i.e. the world and the universe must come before anything including a god? Therefore there can be no such god.

Then I began to read "The Elegant Universe" by string theorist Brian Green. String theory, whether any of the scientists would ever admit it or not, opens up infinite possibilities. Infinite possibilities. Now after some time considering infinite possibilities, I began to encounter situations that are not logically explainable, and no I will not elaborate. After one such dramatic encounter, I was enlightened by just a glimpse of a very small part of a larger picture. My life has since been changed and I can not imagine for a second how I lived even as long as I did as a lost being.

As for "creation" I'm not a stickler on that one, one way or the other. Yet as for the existence of G-D I have zero doubt that he exists. So go ahead, I'm calling all atheists, pile on, tell me of your Flying Spaghetti Monster and any other forms of ridicule you care to heap on, it is no burden for me. I would ask that in the midst of the ridicule, what is it that you are trying to accomplish?


mark, I'm not an atheist, and I'm not interested in "piling on", but I'd like to ask a few questions. You're under no obligation, and I'll understand if you don't.

Do you know which God you are referring to?

If so, how?

Is it possible that you could have been hallucinating or delusional?

Why won't you elaborate?

And do you believe similar claims by believers of other religions, both monotheist and polytheist?

As for what some people may be trying to accomplish, I can only speak for myself. I'm simply arguing for intellectual honesty. Would you agree that there are many people who claim to be "certain" about religious subjects which they clearly aren't certain about?

Regards
quote:
Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
quote:
Or we could make it read: "The Earnest Prayer of One CHRISTIAN does more than the Rhetoric of Millions of ATHEISTS."


Comment on this one:

"The Hard Work of One Atheist does more than the Prayers of Millions of Christians"

You left that combination out of your rant. Just trying to help.


Rhetoric=prayer. SAme thing.*


* prayer as meditation certaing can have some positive effects. I don't do that often enough.
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
quote:
Originally posted by marksw59:
First off, I don't accept in any form the notion of "common wisdom" or "common sense". There is no such thing. What wisdom or sense there is in the world is far too UNcommon.

Have you ever heard of the word allegory?

Here's the thing, I used to be one of you guys, an unbeliever. Rational logic decrees that the primacy of all things is existence. Consciousness can not come first, because without existence, what would there be to be conscious of? How could there be a god that exists outside of existence? Since existence, i.e. the world and the universe must come before anything including a god? Therefore there can be no such god.

Then I began to read "The Elegant Universe" by string theorist Brian Green. String theory, whether any of the scientists would ever admit it or not, opens up infinite possibilities. Infinite possibilities. Now after some time considering infinite possibilities, I began to encounter situations that are not logically explainable, and no I will not elaborate. After one such dramatic encounter, I was enlightened by just a glimpse of a very small part of a larger picture. My life has since been changed and I can not imagine for a second how I lived even as long as I did as a lost being.

As for "creation" I'm not a stickler on that one, one way or the other. Yet as for the existence of G-D I have zero doubt that he exists. So go ahead, I'm calling all atheists, pile on, tell me of your Flying Spaghetti Monster and any other forms of ridicule you care to heap on, it is no burden for me. I would ask that in the midst of the ridicule, what is it that you are trying to accomplish?


mark, I'm not an atheist, and I'm not interested in "piling on", but I'd like to ask a few questions. You're under no obligation, and I'll understand if you don't.

Do you know which God you are referring to?

If so, how?

Is it possible that you could have been hallucinating or delusional?

Why won't you elaborate?

And do you believe similar claims by believers of other religions, both monotheist and polytheist?

As for what some people may be trying to accomplish, I can only speak for myself. I'm simply arguing for intellectual honesty. Would you agree that there are many people who claim to be "certain" about religious subjects which they clearly aren't certain about?

Regards


I would say you have a point. As to why I will not elaborate, I have to ask have you not read any of the posts by the "atheist evangelists"? They are using crusader tactics in their all out assault on apparently any kind of religion. Sharing what is meaningful to me and having them basically fall upon it like hungry wolves would raw meat has little appeal for me. The idea that I would share, to give them opportunity to try and rip it up and finally p*ss all over my experience holds no attraction whatsoever. To borrow and paraphrase from Wayne and Garth, "They're not worthy".

You see, I just don't see what anyone could expect to accomplish by the bashing, crusader tactics those who act like atheist evangelists. I guess it makes them feel superior...
quote:
Originally posted by Dawkins7:
prayer as meditation certaing can have some positive effects. I don't do that often enough.


Such "meditation" comes to me usually while running or riding my bicycle. Just enough of my brain works to keep me alive; the rest is simply elsewhere. But engaging in, say, "transcendental meditation" will get you adjudicated as hellbound as quickly as having carnal relations with your sister. Heck, in some parts of the country, even faster.

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