quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
Those are not commandments except for the last one. Since I've already addressed why Christians do not follow those old laws many times, I won't repeat myself again.


These ARE commandments, Nash. Don't you ever read the book you base your religion upon? In fact, there are about 18 commandments spread over three different books. Most of the ones I mentioned up there were from Exodus.

No, you haven't explained why Christian follow some old rules yet ignore others and the process used to determine which to follow. No, you certainly have not.
quote:
Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
quote:
This one is a little strange: You shall not boil a kid in its mother’s milk.

What do you make of that one, Nash?


(they) were talking about a baby goat; not a, you know, child. I'm pretty sure you had that already, though.

Just trying to help.


Of course. It still comes off as strange, though. Its one of they many reason the Bible can be such an interesting read. One can only wonder what may have transpired that required the lord (or Jewish leaders) to issue this command.
Simple...if you keep your word, and take the higher moral ground under ALL circumstances. Keep your ego out of the equation and remember that no one is perfect.
Depat,

A christian might exhibit those worthwhile qualities, but then, so might an atheist.

Most people, regardless of religious influence, would probably see the merit in your words. Morality and an unexaggerated humility are properties of the better among us.

DF
quote:
Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
Can one be a christian and follow the teachings of Buddha, as well?
The Buddhists do not regard Buddha as a God. Therefore they say you can be of any religion and practice Buddhism. I have spent a cumulative total of three weeks at Green Gluch Zen Farm observing how Christianity should be practiced. But, I ask "If Buddha is not a god, why do you bow to him? BTW, the setting is gorgeous and the gourmet vegetarian food is great!
Not the answer I was expecting but the one I was hoping for. You know, since all them buddhists are going to hay-ull.

Buddha was a teacher without pretensions to godhood.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
It's not abandoned as you put it, it's not followed as law.


So you've back-peddled by stating that the 10 Commandments have been summarized into the two that Jesus gives as the greatest commandments. The ethical delimmas that this raises are beyond calculation.

I keep having problems with God the omnipotent writing a book and then later amending it, all the while leaving in the blatent inconsistencies and contradictions of the older work.
Last edited by CrustyMac
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
L,

If you want to read it, buy the magazine. It won't kill you.

See, I subscribe to SKEPTIC. Perhaps I should buy the Sheffield Library a subscription.

DF


If I can find it in redneckville, I will. You forget DF, this is the backwards world here.


Look in the fiction section, it is likely to be there right beside Darwin.
quote:
Originally posted by Smooth operator:


I had completely forgotten Jesus was a Buddhist. I guess next you'll claim He was a Darwinist as well.


If God created the universe and all that was in it at the time of creation, and Jesus is God's Son, then Jesus is most definitely a Darwinist.
Last edited by CrustyMac
[/QUOTE]

Quite an extraordinary claim. Where is your proof?[/QUOTE]

Where is any proof of a single word written in the Bible? There is none. It is a work of fiction.
quote:
Originally posted by ngt2293:
You have murdered someone
You have committed adultery
You live a lifestyle of a prostitute
You married a heathen
You helped kill other Christians
You are very wise but foolish
You preached for 120 years with no converts
You had little faith
You spent most of your life in prison
You are wild at heart and
You lied to a king.


Pretty much true. Of course your also could be an:

Atheist
Demarcate
Republican
School teacher
Plumber
Roofer
Auto Mechanic
Car Salesman
Realtor
Doctor
Sailor
Pilot
Lawyer........ (Well maybe not lawyer)
quote:
Originally posted by Netracer41:

Where is any proof of a single word written in the Bible? There is none. It is a work of fiction.


If you do not understand the book then it was not written to you or for you, that does not mean it is not understood by others to whom understanding is given.
quote:
Originally posted by bluefishbeagle:
quote:
Originally posted by Netracer41:

Where is any proof of a single word written in the Bible? There is none. It is a work of fiction.


If you do not understand the book then it was not written to you or for you, that does not mean it is not understood by others to whom understanding is given.


Exactly. Its called spiritual discernment. The atheists are not capable of understanding Christian logic because they have refused the Gift.
quote:
Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
So the bible was only intended for a select group to understand, while everyone else was doomed from the get-go?

Well, that explains it. Its in a secret language that only a select pre-chosen few are able to understand!

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, no.
quote:
Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
Is christian logic different from, say, logical logic?


Absolutely. For example, I'll bet that the following makes no sense to you but makes perfect sense to one with the gift of Christian Logic:

"Being an atheist makes no sense because EVERYTHING requires a creator. That creator is God. God requires no creator."
Originally posted by Dawkins7:
quote:
"Being an atheist makes no sense because EVERYTHING requires a creator. That creator is God. God requires no creator."


I have a graph that proves green unicorns require no creator. Hence, I cannot accept the statement, "Everything requires a creator except God." I would be fascinated to learn more about this subject. Can you provide me with a source of information for this topic, without quoting the Bible.
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
I have a graph that proves green unicorns require no creator.


Bah. Prove it!
quote:
Originally posted by Dawkins7:
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
I have a graph that proves green unicorns require no creator.


Bah. Prove it!


That is an unfair and hateful request. You are questioning my faith in Green Unicorns.
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
Originally posted by Dawkins7:
quote:
"Being an atheist makes no sense because EVERYTHING requires a creator. That creator is God. God requires no creator."


I have a graph that proves green unicorns require no creator. Hence, I cannot accept the statement, "Everything requires a creator except God." I would be fascinated to learn more about this subject. Can you provide me with a source of information for this topic, without quoting the Bible.


Sounds like the question of primacy. Which comes first, consciousness or existence? Rational logic dictates that the answer is existence. Yet is that all there is? Each person will have to conclude that for themselves.
But mark, this a scientific question. We don't get to choose for ourselves whether geocentrism is real.

There is an answer.

DF
You might be a fundamentalist Christian if....

You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
But mark, this a scientific question. We don't get to choose for ourselves whether geocentrism is real.

There is an answer.

DF


Actually it is a philosophical question, and you do get to choose which you think is correct. You either accept that science can currently explain everything (which it cannot), or you accept the premise that "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." When modern science knows everything, even beyond the grand unified field theory, then maybe it will be a scientific question. I just don't have that much faith, yes, faith in the state of science.
Hi Skeptik,

Looking at your new tag line: "The Hard Work of One does more than the Prayers of Millions" -- I agree, but with just a couple of minor modifications.

It would be more truthful if it read: "The Hard Work of One CHRISTIAN does more than the Prayers of Millions of ATHEISTS."

Now, that has the ring of truth to it.

Or we could make it read: "The Earnest Prayer of One CHRISTIAN does more than the Rhetoric of Millions of ATHEISTS."

Try one of these new tag lines. It will make folks believe you have finally come to your senses.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Attachments

Images (1)
quote:
Sounds like the question of primacy. Which comes first, consciousness or existence? Rational logic dictates that the answer is existence.


Modern biology indicates that all traits evolved in infintessimally small leaps and starts. It makes sense only if you understand the bare basics of evolution.


quote:
You either accept that science can currently explain everything (which it cannot), or you accept the premise that "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,


I certainly accept that science is fully capable of explaining "everything" given enough time. We've only had the tools of science for about 500 years and look how much we have discovered thus far.

Would you believe that the common wisdom was that man evolved from a block of clay and woman was cloned from the rib of a man? Why didn't they just make another woman out another bit of clay? Why the invasive surgery on Adam?

Would you believe that we once thought that all life on earth was extinguished during a Great Flood except from one boat that held every single land animal that ever existed including dinosaurs (including over 200,000 different types of beetles alone!) . . . Stop laughing. Seriously! This was accept as fact!

Would you believe that people used to think that snakes could talk? . . . Wait a minute, I think we just completed a thread on this and some people do still believe that so scratch that. We've got work to do.

Getting rid of ancient superstitions and illogical dogma would go a long ways towards our enlightenment.

In any case, there is no reason to believe that the biggest questions we have no will be answered as long as we don't destroy ourselves by our own ignorance.

The past 500 years proves that.
quote:
Originally posted by Dawkins7:
quote:
Sounds like the question of primacy. Which comes first, consciousness or existence? Rational logic dictates that the answer is existence.


Modern biology indicates that all traits evolved in infintessimally small leaps and starts. It makes sense only if you understand the bare basics of evolution.


quote:
You either accept that science can currently explain everything (which it cannot), or you accept the premise that "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,


I certainly accept that science is fully capable of explaining "everything" given enough time. We've only had the tools of science for about 500 years and look how much we have discovered thus far.


So, in essence you have faith in science. I know you will deny that word, but use "confidence" instead to ease your mind

quote:
Originally posted by Dawkins7:Would you believe that the common wisdom was that man evolved from a block of clay and woman was cloned from the rib of a man? Why didn't they just make another woman out another bit of clay? Why the invasive surgery on Adam?

Would you believe that we once thought that all life on earth was extinguished during a Great Flood except from one boat that held every single land animal that ever existed including dinosaurs (including over 200,000 different types of beetles alone!) . . . Stop laughing. Seriously! This was accept as fact!

Would you believe that people used to think that snakes could talk? . . . Wait a minute, I think we just completed a thread on this and some people do still believe that so scratch that. We've got work to do.

Getting rid of ancient superstitions and illogical dogma would go a long ways towards our enlightenment.

In any case, there is no reason to believe that the biggest questions we have no will be answered as long as we don't destroy ourselves by our own ignorance.

The past 500 years proves that.


First off, I don't accept in any form the notion of "common wisdom" or "common sense". There is no such thing. What wisdom or sense there is in the world is far too UNcommon.

Have you ever heard of the word allegory?

Here's the thing, I used to be one of you guys, an unbeliever. Rational logic decrees that the primacy of all things is existence. Consciousness can not come first, because without existence, what would there be to be conscious of? How could there be a god that exists outside of existence? Since existence, i.e. the world and the universe must come before anything including a god? Therefore there can be no such god.

Then I began to read "The Elegant Universe" by string theorist Brian Green. String theory, whether any of the scientists would ever admit it or not, opens up infinite possibilities. Infinite possibilities. Now after some time considering infinite possibilities, I began to encounter situations that are not logically explainable, and no I will not elaborate. After one such dramatic encounter, I was enlightened by just a glimpse of a very small part of a larger picture. My life has since been changed and I can not imagine for a second how I lived even as long as I did as a lost being.

As for "creation" I'm not a stickler on that one, one way or the other. Yet as for the existence of G-D I have zero doubt that he exists. So go ahead, I'm calling all atheists, pile on, tell me of your Flying Spaghetti Monster and any other forms of ridicule you care to heap on, it is no burden for me. I would ask that in the midst of the ridicule, what is it that you are trying to accomplish?
quote:
Here's the thing, I used to be one of you guys, an unbeliever. Rational logic decrees that the primacy of all things is existence. Consciousness can not come first, because without existence, what would there be to be conscious of? How could there be a god that exists outside of existence? Since existence, i.e. the world and the universe must come before anything including a god? Therefore there can be no such god.

Then I began to read "The Elegant Universe" by string theorist Brian Green. String theory, whether any of the scientists would ever admit it or not, opens up infinite possibilities. Infinite possibilities. Now after some time considering infinite possibilities, I began to encounter situations that are not logically explainable, and no I will not elaborate. After one such dramatic encounter, I was enlightened by just a glimpse of a very small part of a larger picture. My life has since been changed and I can not imagine for a second how I lived even as long as I did as a lost being.

As for "creation" I'm not a stickler on that one, one way or the other. Yet as for the existence of G-D I have zero doubt that he exists. So go ahead, I'm calling all atheists, pile on, tell me of your Flying Spaghetti Monster and any other forms of ridicule you care to heap on, it is no burden for me. I would ask that in the midst of the ridicule, what is it that you are trying to accomplish?


Excellent post.
quote:
Originally posted by marksw59:
quote:
Originally posted by Dawkins7:

I certainly accept that science is fully capable of explaining "everything" given enough time. We've only had the tools of science for about 500 years and look how much we have discovered thus far.


So, in essence you have faith in science. I know you will deny that word, but use "confidence" instead to ease your mind


Why, yes, that's exactly the word I would use. The same word you thought I would use. I'm glad you recognize the difference.

Yes, my "confidence" is based on 500 years of observable progress that science has brought to us. It has not a damm thing to do with faith and everything to do with observable, verifiable facts, logic and reason.

quote:
Here's the thing, I used to be one of you guys, an unbeliever. Rational logic decrees that the primacy of all things is existence. Consciousness can not come first, because without existence, what would there be to be conscious of? How could there be a god that exists outside of existence? Since existence, i.e. the world and the universe must come before anything including a god? Therefore there can be no such god.


Mark, that whole paragraph is one long non-sequitur. If you based your disbelief on this, no wonder you have embraced the irrational.

This is a statement based on your refusal to study the theories on how things came to be. There are rational, logical, mathematically justifiable ways of discerning these things. No Great Boogyman In the Sky is necessary.

quote:
Then I began to read "The Elegant Universe" by string theorist Brian Green. String theory, whether any of the scientists would ever admit it or not, opens up infinite possibilities. Infinite possibilities. Now after some time considering infinite possibilities, I began to encounter situations that are not logically explainable, and no I will not elaborate. After one such dramatic encounter, I was enlightened by just a glimpse of a very small part of a larger picture. My life has since been changed and I can not imagine for a second how I lived even as long as I did as a lost being.


Ahh, here we have Nash's perennial "People change, therefore god exists!"

I'm not sure I understand you point for being here if you don't want to share what it is you believe and why you believe it. You experience some mystical "something" that you refused to describe. You have had "situations" that you can't explain. If it is so logical and "real" to you, it should be just as logical and real to me.

There is nothing in my experience that I will not logically explain and clarify for you. All I ask if the same of you. This "I had some stuff happen to be that I'm not going to tell you about but you better trust me because your immortal soul is at stake" is just silly. Fess up!

quote:
I would ask that in the midst of the ridicule, what is it that you are trying to accomplish?


To spread the disease of reason and rational thought and hearty debate. No more or less.

No one has ever committed evil because they were thinking too rationally, ya know.
quote:
Or we could make it read: "The Earnest Prayer of One CHRISTIAN does more than the Rhetoric of Millions of ATHEISTS."


Comment on this one:

"The Hard Work of One Atheist does more than the Prayers of Millions of Christians"

You left that combination out of your rant. Just trying to help.
quote:
Originally posted by marksw59:
First off, I don't accept in any form the notion of "common wisdom" or "common sense". There is no such thing. What wisdom or sense there is in the world is far too UNcommon.

Have you ever heard of the word allegory?

Here's the thing, I used to be one of you guys, an unbeliever. Rational logic decrees that the primacy of all things is existence. Consciousness can not come first, because without existence, what would there be to be conscious of? How could there be a god that exists outside of existence? Since existence, i.e. the world and the universe must come before anything including a god? Therefore there can be no such god.

Then I began to read "The Elegant Universe" by string theorist Brian Green. String theory, whether any of the scientists would ever admit it or not, opens up infinite possibilities. Infinite possibilities. Now after some time considering infinite possibilities, I began to encounter situations that are not logically explainable, and no I will not elaborate. After one such dramatic encounter, I was enlightened by just a glimpse of a very small part of a larger picture. My life has since been changed and I can not imagine for a second how I lived even as long as I did as a lost being.

As for "creation" I'm not a stickler on that one, one way or the other. Yet as for the existence of G-D I have zero doubt that he exists. So go ahead, I'm calling all atheists, pile on, tell me of your Flying Spaghetti Monster and any other forms of ridicule you care to heap on, it is no burden for me. I would ask that in the midst of the ridicule, what is it that you are trying to accomplish?


mark, I'm not an atheist, and I'm not interested in "piling on", but I'd like to ask a few questions. You're under no obligation, and I'll understand if you don't.

Do you know which God you are referring to?

If so, how?

Is it possible that you could have been hallucinating or delusional?

Why won't you elaborate?

And do you believe similar claims by believers of other religions, both monotheist and polytheist?

As for what some people may be trying to accomplish, I can only speak for myself. I'm simply arguing for intellectual honesty. Would you agree that there are many people who claim to be "certain" about religious subjects which they clearly aren't certain about?

Regards
quote:
Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
quote:
Or we could make it read: "The Earnest Prayer of One CHRISTIAN does more than the Rhetoric of Millions of ATHEISTS."


Comment on this one:

"The Hard Work of One Atheist does more than the Prayers of Millions of Christians"

You left that combination out of your rant. Just trying to help.


Rhetoric=prayer. SAme thing.*


* prayer as meditation certaing can have some positive effects. I don't do that often enough.
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
quote:
Originally posted by marksw59:
First off, I don't accept in any form the notion of "common wisdom" or "common sense". There is no such thing. What wisdom or sense there is in the world is far too UNcommon.

Have you ever heard of the word allegory?

Here's the thing, I used to be one of you guys, an unbeliever. Rational logic decrees that the primacy of all things is existence. Consciousness can not come first, because without existence, what would there be to be conscious of? How could there be a god that exists outside of existence? Since existence, i.e. the world and the universe must come before anything including a god? Therefore there can be no such god.

Then I began to read "The Elegant Universe" by string theorist Brian Green. String theory, whether any of the scientists would ever admit it or not, opens up infinite possibilities. Infinite possibilities. Now after some time considering infinite possibilities, I began to encounter situations that are not logically explainable, and no I will not elaborate. After one such dramatic encounter, I was enlightened by just a glimpse of a very small part of a larger picture. My life has since been changed and I can not imagine for a second how I lived even as long as I did as a lost being.

As for "creation" I'm not a stickler on that one, one way or the other. Yet as for the existence of G-D I have zero doubt that he exists. So go ahead, I'm calling all atheists, pile on, tell me of your Flying Spaghetti Monster and any other forms of ridicule you care to heap on, it is no burden for me. I would ask that in the midst of the ridicule, what is it that you are trying to accomplish?


mark, I'm not an atheist, and I'm not interested in "piling on", but I'd like to ask a few questions. You're under no obligation, and I'll understand if you don't.

Do you know which God you are referring to?

If so, how?

Is it possible that you could have been hallucinating or delusional?

Why won't you elaborate?

And do you believe similar claims by believers of other religions, both monotheist and polytheist?

As for what some people may be trying to accomplish, I can only speak for myself. I'm simply arguing for intellectual honesty. Would you agree that there are many people who claim to be "certain" about religious subjects which they clearly aren't certain about?

Regards


I would say you have a point. As to why I will not elaborate, I have to ask have you not read any of the posts by the "atheist evangelists"? They are using crusader tactics in their all out assault on apparently any kind of religion. Sharing what is meaningful to me and having them basically fall upon it like hungry wolves would raw meat has little appeal for me. The idea that I would share, to give them opportunity to try and rip it up and finally p*ss all over my experience holds no attraction whatsoever. To borrow and paraphrase from Wayne and Garth, "They're not worthy".

You see, I just don't see what anyone could expect to accomplish by the bashing, crusader tactics those who act like atheist evangelists. I guess it makes them feel superior...
quote:
Originally posted by Dawkins7:
prayer as meditation certaing can have some positive effects. I don't do that often enough.


Such "meditation" comes to me usually while running or riding my bicycle. Just enough of my brain works to keep me alive; the rest is simply elsewhere. But engaging in, say, "transcendental meditation" will get you adjudicated as hellbound as quickly as having carnal relations with your sister. Heck, in some parts of the country, even faster.

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