Your opinion and definition of Christianity

FR,
I don't post on the forums much, but wanted to reply to you on this one.

I understand Christianity as being a follower of Christ. Following Him includes worshipping and adoring Him as Lord and Saviour, but also includes an attempt to be like Him and do the things that He did. Jesus Christ was a minister to (a helper of) the poor and the hurting. We are told in the Bible that pure religion is to visit orphans and widows. This is not everything we are told to do, but it does show what our religious "attitude" should be.

The conflicts that Jesus had were mostly with people who CLAIMED to be religious. I have respect for anyone with religious sincerity, and I think we have to assume that people are sincere since we can't see the heart like God does. I believe that the Bible is God's complete Word, and that there is evidence to show that it is. Therefore, I would encourage anyone to look to the Bible for their guidelines on religion.

In the Old Testament, God supported His people in war. I think a large part of Revelation was God protecting Christians from the war that destroyed Jerusalem. I personally think that God does not like war, because He does not like the reasons that men use to start wars. Does that make sense?

I think that most of Revelation was for the early Christians as a warning of coming destruction and how they were to avoid it. It also includes some timeless messages such as "good" will defeat "evil" and the "good" will receive a reward in the end. I agree with your belief about the antiChrist.

Hope this is what you were looking for.

Hi Francis,

This is rather like déjà vu for me. For years I read the TimesDaily online just to keep up with my hometown happenings; but, I stayed away from any and all Forums/Chat Room/etc. -- for I saw them all as just "spitting contests."

But, in January 2007, while reading the TimesDaily, I glanced at the Forums and saw a discussion titled "What Is A Christian?" This intrigued me, so I took a look. The Shoals being in the belt buckle of the Bible Belt -- I expected to see comments from a number of Christian believers. Yet, all I saw was a handful of atheists and secularists defaming Christ, Christianity, and all Christian believers. I jumped in to refute these false teachings -- and, today I am still here in the thick of things in the Religions Forum. So, thanks for the memories.

You ask, "I need someone to enlighten me concerning Christianity. And I'm not trying to be ugly about this; but it just seems to me that people that I've run into who claim to be Christians -- seem to either have a chip on their shoulders, they think they are better than you, and maybe they think I'm not a christian and they treat me like a disease. It seems they are always putting down people, especially the poor people. And I would just like for some true Christian to reply to me and give me the real definition of a true Christian. I would really like to know your true thoughts on Christianity."

First, let me clarify one thing. If you go on the street and ask folks if they are Christian; a large percentage will say, "Yes." But, if you ask where they worship, many will also say, "Well, I don't really go to church; but, I am a Christian because I believe in God and I believe in Jesus Christ." This is a wrong answer for several reasons: (1) A person who is truly a Christian will want to be part of a church fellowship and want to gather with like minded Christian people to celebrate Jesus Christ and to worship God, and (2) intellectually believing that He is God and that Jesus Christ is His Son -- does not make anyone a Christian. Satan and all his demonic angels KNOW that He is God and that Jesus Christ is His Son. But, they most certainly are not Christians.

All of my life, if anyone asked if I was a Christian, my immediate response was always, "Yes. Most certainly. I believe in God; I believe in Jesus Christ. I attended the Baptist, Methodist, and Nazarene church in Sheffield when I was a kid. Sure, I am a Christian!" Wrong! I was nowhere near being a Christian. And, my next statement following that one would typically be, "Hey, let's hit that new night club tonight. They have some hot go-go dancers!" Sure, I was a Christian -- about as much as Satan.

There are social Christians; those who wear a Christian hat and attend church -- but, leave God and Jesus Christ in the pew when they leave church.

And, there are the networking Christians; those who attend church to farm it for their business. I have met many of these; some will come to church, passing out business cards and brochures, cornering everyone who looks like a potential client -- and, then, when that church has been farmed as much as possible -- they move on to a larger church.

But, praise the Lord -- there are many sincere Christian believers. These are many, many folks who take seriously the name Christian -- Christ Follower. And, it is a joy to be in fellowship with these people, together worshiping God and maturing in His Word through corporate Bible studies and Sunday School classes.

Yet, even among this fine group, you will find that we are all human. There will be time when someone will inadvertently step on your toes, possibly say something which will hurt your feelings. We just have to remember: love and forgiveness goes both ways, we should be willing to forgive them. The Lord's Prayer in Luke 11:4 tells us, "And forgive us our sins, for we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us." And, in Matthew 6:12, it reads, "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors."

And, in Mark 11:25 Jesus tells us, "Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions."

Francis, yes, there are nasty Christians. This is a fact we cannot deny. Becoming a Christian believer has transformed our lives; but, unfortunately, it has made none of us perfect. We Christians, like all people, still have our flaws -- and some of those can, at times, be unpleasant. However, as you can see -- the rule of thumb is -- we should forgive others all we have against them; so that our Lord can forgive us. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven.

Next, you ask, "I'd like to know how you, as a Christian, should treat people."

The Bible, our guideline for Christian living tells us:

Galatians 5:22-23, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law."

1 Corinthians 13:3-8, "And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body [fn] to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails;. . ."

But, as I told you earlier -- even as Christian believers, we are all still flawed humans. In Romans 3:23 we are told, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." So, while all Christian believers should be striving to be as much like Christ as possible; in these mortal bodies, we are still flawed humans. So, once again, the rule of thumb we must all strive to maintain is: we must forgive others their sins against us -- so that our Father in heaven may forgive us.

Then, you ask, "Should we fear God and if so, why? I would also like to know what you think as a Christian as to what God thinks of the war."

Fear God? No. Hold him in awe, reverence

In Genesis 22:12, when God is holding back the hand of Abraham who, out of respect for God, was going to sacrifice his son, Isaac, God tells Abraham, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."

In this Scripture verse, the word "fear" is the Hebrew word yare' (pronounced yä·ra) -- and here, it means, according to Strong's Concordance, "to stand in awe of, be awed, to fear, reverence, honour, respect; to inspire reverence or godly fear or awe"

In the New Testament, we find in 1 Peter 2:17, "Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king."

And, in Revelation 14:7, "And he said with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give Him glory, . . ."

In both cases, the word "fear" is the Greek word phobeo and in this context, according to Strong's Concordance, means, "To reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience."

No, we do not FEAR God. We revere, love, reverence, respect, and stand in awe of Him.

You ask, "I would also like to know what you think as a Christian as to what God thinks of the war."

God hates war, just as God hates sin. But, He has given man "free will" -- and man's nature, combined with his "free will" has created many horrors, including wars. Yes, in the Old Testament God did use this evil nature side of man in pagan nations to discipline His chosen people, Israel. And, He did use war to drive the pagan nations out of the land He had set aside for His people, Israel. But, wars are evil and while God will allow evil, just as He did with Job -- for Him to forbid evil would be to deny the "free will" He has given man.

On the other hand, if you are speaking of the War Against Terrorism; I do not believe that we who are fighting against terrorism in the world are displeasing God by this self defense action.

You ask, "As a christian, are you suppose to give back as well as you take?"

In Acts 20:35, the apostle Paul tells the people of Caesarea, and us, "In everything I showed you that by working hard in this manner you must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"
This I believe.

And, you ask, "As a true Christian, do you respect other denominations and other non-denominations? Do you respect religion of others?"

While, as a Christian, I respect all religious beliefs -- I will have to qualify this and say that the only Path, the only Way, to eternal life with God is through Jesus Christ (John 14:6). So, while I can respect the rights of Muslims, Buddhist, Hindus, etc., to worship their own gods -- I also know that they are on the path to self destruction; they are on the path to eternally living, not in the presence of God, but in the presence of Satan.

Regarding other denominations and non-denominational churches -- if they teach the Essential Christian Biblical Doctrines; yes, I respect them. I may not worship the same as them. I am more of a Conservative Christian; I love to worship God in song -- and, I have been known to discreetly shake my booty while singing. However, I am not one who speaks in tongues (although it is Biblical) and I am not one to jump, shout, and dance all over the church. But, if that make some of my Christian brothers and sisters feel closer to our Lord -- then, God bless them, sing, dance, shout -- whatever brings you closer to God.

What are the Essential Christian Biblical Doctrines:

1. Jesus Christ is deity; He is the preexisting Son of God.

2. There is one God, manifested in three distinct Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

3. The Bible is the Written Word of God; inspired by the Holy Spirit and is without error in its moral and spiritual teaching and in its record of historical facts.

4. That by His death on the cross, our Lord Jesus Christ, who was sinless, made a perfect atonement for our sin.

5. That through His resurrection on the third day, our Lord Jesus Christ defeated death, once and for all, and made redemption available to ALL who believe in Him as Lord and Savior.

If a church, of any denomination or non-denomination, teaches these truths -- it is a Christian church. If its teachings differ from these -- it is not a Christian church.

Finally, you ask, "Some people believe there's going to be an Antichrist who will rule the world. They claim they get this from Revelation. How much of Revelation do you believe has already happened and how much has not? My belief is that anyone who does not believe in Christ is an Antichrist. The Antichrist is already here and there's a lot of them."

First, let's get on the same page. The Antichrist spoken of in the book of Revelation is a very distinct and evil person who is yet to be revealed. Yes, there are many people in the world who reflect the Antichrist nature; but, they are not the Antichrist of Revelation.

No, none of the prophecies in Revelation have been fulfilled. Preterist, those who believe that believe in a past fulfillment of prophecy will tell you that the Tribulation happened in 70 AD when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. Yet, this is not Biblical.

While much of the book of Revelation is written in symbolic terms; there is enough prophecy throughout the Bible to clarify what Revelation teaches.

The church will be Raptured, taken out of this world, at some point in time which none us knows -- it is imminent; meaning that it could happen at any moment -- or it might not happen for years. Yet, it will happen. Jesus Christ will come in the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:17) and we believers will be "caught up" (harpazo in Greek, rapiemur in Latin) into the clouds to meet our Lord. We will receive our immortal bodies so that, in that respect, we will be like Him.

And, we will be taken into heaven where we will reside during the seven years of the Tribulation described in Revelation 6 to 18. During this period, we will stand before Jesus Christ at the Bema Seat Judgment, a judgment of rewards. And, during this period we will be the honored Bride of Christ at the Wedding Feast of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-9).

We find, in Revelation 19:11-21, the Second Coming of Jesus Christ to rule the world happens. He will return, and we, the Bride of Christ, and the Old Testament saints will return with Him. He will cast Satan into the abyss (Revelation 20:1-3) for one thousand years.

Then Jesus Christ will establish His Millennial Kingdom on earth, His Millennial Reign from the throne of David in Jerusalem, for one thousand years, the perfect theocracy.

At the end of the thousand year Millennial Reign, Satan will be released from the abyss and will once again gather an army of non-believers, billions, and he will arrogantly attempt to come against Jesus Christ and the holy city, Jerusalem. Satan and his army will be destroyed supernaturally and thrown into the lake of fire, there to join the Antichrist and his False Prophet. That is the end of Satan -- for eternity. At least for believers. For those who die as non-believers -- they will live eternally with Satan.

Finally, the Great White Throne Judgment, when all who died not believing in Jesus Christ will be resurrected and will stand before Him in judgment -- a judgment of punishment. Then, they will be sent to the lake of fire, there to join Satan, the Antichrist, and all others who died not believing.

Then, this earth will be destroyed and the New Heaven, the New Earth, and the New Jerusalem will be created -- and there we will live in harmony, in the presence of our Lord -- for eternity.

Francis, this is what the book of Revelation is all about. And, it is verified in virtually every book of the Bible. End Time prophecy is not blue sky -- it is God's promise to us of the future. All we have to do is to choose which future home we want to live in eternally: heaven with God, or hell with Satan. Seems like a no-brainer, doesn't it? Yet, billions have and will continue to make the wrong choice. I pray that all of our Forum Friends have, or will very soon, make that decision to join the God Team.

You end with, "I appreciate serious reply's only. Thank you very much."

Please know that I am very serious when it comes to sharing the Word of God. And, I thank you for raising these very good questions. Through such discussions, we all can grow and mature in our knowledge of God's Word.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

I'm not really sure how to answer this.
but - these are a few of the things i believe.
i want to stress this emphatically - i do not say " THIS IS THE TRUTH " i say, i believe this to be true.

Christianity is somethign different to everyone.
God has a different use and purpose for each of us, so there isn't any possible way to lay out one comprehensive set of rules and apply them to every single person.
the only thing that i can think of that is required for salvation through christianity is this:

Accept and believe that Jesus was the One living son of God and that he gave his life that we might be forgiven, and then asking for that forgivness for your sins.
the one key point to all of this is that you really have to believe it, and you really have to mean it. you can't just spout the words.

everything else is pretty wishy-washy. there are a very few hard set rules, and that's the only one that is a must.

we sin. a lot. whether by word or thought or deed, we sin. but we ask for and recieve forgivness, if we mean it when we ask for it.
somepeople will tell you tha tonce you are saved, you are always saved. once you are forgiven, there is no need to ask again, because forgivness is now an automatic thing for the saved.

i do not believe this, but i understand how the idea got started. i was talkign with a friend who DOES believe it, but for a reason i hadn't expected.
it isn't ' once save, always saved' as the words would suggest, but it means, he told me, that once you are really truly saved, you won't do the things that cause you to NEED forgivness anymore. if you DO need forgivness, you wern't really truly saved in the first place.

i don't buy that either, but at least it makes more sence that a perpetual state of repeated-forgivness.
i also don't believe in the idea of Original Sin. i think it's a manmade concept invented to keep people subserviant to the church leaders.

i think the bible is a set of words and stories, most of which are made up, fiction.. fairytales, if you will, that are intended to give us examples on how God would like us to live our lives. i think that maybe 75 percent of it has been twisted for the purposes of the rulers and leaders of the states and churches of the time.
but even with that, there are still some excellent rules to live by in that book, whether someone believe in God or not.

Don't murder people. Don't steal stuff. Don't cheat on your spouse. remember to respect your parents because they brought you into this world. be nice to people, because you'd like them to be nice to you.

All i can say is: read the bible. Ponder it's meaning, and listen for god to tell you what he wants of you. it's not going to be a Shoutout! it'll be that calm still voice that you don't expect.

Even if a lot of it is crap, i would suggest reading the book. Read Genesis. then skip to matthew. the first bit of Matt is the "begats' - a small secion of geanology, skip that too, because even if it IS true, who cares. read the four gospels. that covers the begining and the life and words of christ, and leaves out all the stuff from the people who try to guess what christ intended. i tend to put more importance on the original and less on the commentary, ya know?
most of the rest of the old testament is suspect to me.
you're also going to need to expect that there are a couple of people on here that will start off there answer by telling you how wildly wrong and mistaken i am.
so be it. we're all entitled to our opinion, and i accept that God has given them a different message than he gave me.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
...and (2) intellectually believing that He is God and that Jesus Christ is His Son...

Can someone say "oxymoron?"

quote:

Originally posted by DustinSmith:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
...and (2) intellectually believing that He is God and that Jesus Christ is His Son...

Can someone say "oxymoron?"

While i disagree with most ...almost all... of what bill wrote,
i have to point out that just because you don't believe it, doesn't mean it isn't real.
i also think this was a tad disrespectful of the original poster.
he was seriously seeking information, and while i would have ignored a serious post refuting christianity, this was just a cheap shot.
akin to standing up in a drama class and saying ' that's what she said' during the Friends, romans, countrymen speech.

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:
Christianity is somethign different to everyone.
God has a different use and purpose for each of us, so there isn't any possible way to lay out one comprehensive set of rules and apply them to every single person.

Hi Nagel,

Guess what? God has done just that! It is called the Bible, the Written Word of God -- and it gives a very clear pathway to salvation; it gives a very clear guideline for Christian living.

As a matter of fact, the Bible covers just about any need you might have.

You should get one and study it. You will be amazed at how smart God really is!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

As a matter of fact, the Bible covers just about any need you might have.

You should get one and study it. You will be amazed at how smart God really is!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill,

I would estimate that for every one person you've brought to religion, you've driven away 100.

Dustin

quote:

Originally posted by DustinSmith:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
...and (2) intellectually believing that He is God and that Jesus Christ is His Son...

Can someone say "oxymoron?"

Hi Dustin,

It appears that you are not clear on what defines an oxymoron. How can a person intellectually believing in God be an oxymoron?

Many people believe intellectually in God; but, do not believe spiritually. So, what is the contradiction?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by DustinSmith:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
As a matter of fact, the Bible covers just about any need you might have.

You should get one and study it. You will be amazed at how smart God really is!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day, Bill

Bill,

I would estimate that for every one person you've brought to religion, you've driven away 100. Dustin

Hi Dustin,

I must ask: how would you know? I doubt you have ever been close enough to a church to see if anyone is coming or going. Just a thought.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
I doubt you have ever been close enough to a church to see if anyone is coming or going.

Wrong as always, Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by FrancisRock:
I need someone to enlighten me concerning christianity and I'm not trying to be ugly about this but it just seems to me that people that I've run into that claim to be christians seem to either have a chip on their shoulders, they think they are better than you, and maybe they think I'm not a christian and they treat me like a disease. It seems they are always putting down people, especially the poor people. And I would just like for some true christian to reply to me and give me the real definition of a true christian. I would really like to know your true thoughts on christianity.

I'd like to know how you as a christian should treat people. Should we fear God and if so, why? I would also like to know what you think as a christian as to what God thinks of the war.

As a christian, are you suppose to give back as well as you take?

As a true christian, do you respect other denominations and other non-denominations? Do you respect religion of others?

Some people believe there's going to be an antiChrist and rule the world and they claim they get this from Revelations. How much of Revelations do you believe has already happened and how much has not? My belief is that anyone who does not believe in Christ is an antiChrist. The antiChrist is already here and there's a lot of them.

I appreciate serious reply's only. Thank you very much.

Francis,

Yours is a very good question. There are literally thousands of interpretations of Christianity.

Could the word of God be so ambiguous?

There are Christians who would not hurt a flea, and there are those hell-bent on violence. Which is right?

The only answer that makes any sense at all is that people make up religions. Think about it. God could settle all this if he had a press conference on CNN tomorrow night, but he won't. We made him up. We made up all the gods, all the Valhallas, all the Hells, all the subtle differences between cardinal and mortal sins.

We did it. We made god in our own image. Nothing else makes sense.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:
Christianity is somethign different to everyone.
God has a different use and purpose for each of us, so there isn't any possible way to lay out one comprehensive set of rules and apply them to every single person.

Hi Nagel,

Guess what? God has done just that! It is called the Bible, the Written Word of God -- and it gives a very clear pathway to salvation; it gives a very clear guideline for Christian living.

As a matter of fact, the Bible covers just about any need you might have.

You should get one and study it. You will be amazed at how smart God really is!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

why would i need to read a book written by a bunch of corrupt, self serving potentates to better understand God?

I know.. i understand your point, bill, but i disagree with you.
to you, it proves everything, because you already believe.
to me, it proves nothing, because i think it's mostly a lie.

Let me just insert this, and yes it's my own beliefs. It's long but by necessity in order to add supporting scriptures to explain.

A Christian is no different from any other human (male/female) except for one important distinction and that distinction is the presence of the Holy Spirit within that believer to minister to, assist, interact with the believer's inner spirit (soul, soul/spirit being that which lives on after death of the physical body). Some say it's impossible to know for sure anything but that's not the case we all have things that we know for sure ( at least know based upon our own experience ) and then there are issues of Faith that we believe/feel based upon faith. I KNOW where I am typing this from because I am literally here, I KNOW I am alive and breathing, I have faith that the world will be here tomorrow, that some astroid won't crash into the earth destroying all life. I have faith my home will not fall apart. One of those things that I know is God's Holy Spirit resides within and that I am saved, through Christ, and that happened at the moment of my Salvation therefore I have no doubts in God's existence for I have, and continue to have, first hand experience. It matters not to me if another believes or accepts that I can only relate to what I have experienced, that's my only responsibility ... to share what has happened when ask or given the chance but not by force or force it on anyone. God approaches who He will in His own way it's not mine to judge anyone and therefore I try never to do so, with respect to religion. I do feel that God uses people in many different ways and speaks to people in many different and diverse ways and my responsibility is to myself.

So what is a Christian? A person who has been convicted by God's Holy Spirit of their Spiritual need and responded by acknowledgement of their inadequate sinful state and in need of forgiveness from God's ultimate judgement upon Sin. By faith accepting that Jesus Christ (God in Human Flesh, divine) died and through His shed blood our sins were covered, forgiven behind that (perfect blood) upon which God responds by placing His Holy Spirit within the physical body of the believer as a guarantee that what was experienced was indeed real for it last continually and long after that initial salvation event. To me that is a Christian.

Scriptures I go to for reinforcement about the gift of God's Holy Spirit

John 14:15-17 (NIV) 15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

again

Acts 19:1-6 (NIV) 1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." 3 So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. 4 Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

again

Romans 8:5-16 (NIV) 5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. 9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

additionally

1 Corinthians 3:16 (NIV) 16 Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 1 Corinthians 6:19 (NIV) 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 2 Corinthians 3:3 (NIV) 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. Galatians 4:4-6 (NIV) 4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. 6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

again in

Ephesians 1:13-14 (ESV) 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. Ephesians 2:18-22 (NIV) 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

and

Ephesians 4:30 (NIV) 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

and

Titus 3:4-7 (CEV) 4 God our Savior showed us how good and kind he is. 5 He saved us because of his mercy, and not because of any good things that we have done. God washed us by the power of the Holy Spirit. He gave us new birth and a fresh beginning. 6 God sent Jesus Christ our Savior to give us his Spirit. 7 Jesus treated us much better than we deserve. He made us acceptable to God and gave us the hope of eternal life.


There was also some statement about the Bible being confusing or how can we understand a document, from God, that at best, at times seems ambiguous and hard to understand. The answer is that same Holy Spirit enables us to understand God's word. GOD speaks to His saints, believers, by the Holy Spirit that dwells (lives) within the believer/Christian

1 John 2:27 (CEV) 27 But Christ has blessed you with the Holy Spirit. Now the Spirit stays in you, and you don't need any teachers. The Spirit is truthful and teaches you everything. So stay one in your heart with Christ, just as the Spirit has taught you to do. 1 Corinthians 2:10-15 (CEV) 10 God's Spirit has shown you everything. His Spirit finds out everything, even what is deep in the mind of God. 11 You are the only one who knows what is in your own mind, and God's Spirit is the only one who knows what is in God's mind. 12 But God has given us his Spirit. That's why we don't think the same way that the people of this world think. That's also why we can recognize the blessings that God has given us. 13 Every word we speak was taught to us by God's Spirit, not by human wisdom. And this same Spirit helps us teach spiritual things to spiritual people. 14 That's why only someone who has God's Spirit can understand spiritual blessings. Anyone who doesn't have God's Spirit thinks these blessings are foolish. 15 People who are guided by the Spirit can make all kinds of judgments, but they cannot be judged by others.

How can one have CONFIDENCE to KNOW that they are Saved, to KNOW that God is real and that their Salvation is real ....

1 John 3:21-24 (NIV) 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. Ephesians 2:18-22 (CEV) 18 And because of Christ, all of us can come to the Father by the same Spirit. 19 You Gentiles are no longer strangers and foreigners. You are citizens with everyone else who belongs to the family of God. 20 You are like a building with the apostles and prophets as the foundation and with Christ as the most important stone. 21 Christ is the one who holds the building together and makes it grow into a holy temple for the Lord. 22 And you are part of that building Christ has built as a place for God's own Spirit to live.

FINALLY, yes an end to my endless post.
What other things does the presence of God's Holy Spirit do to a Christian or for the Christian. I will again let God's scriptures answer this for me:

Galatians 5:22-26 (CEV) 22 God's Spirit makes us loving, happy, peaceful, patient, kind, good, faithful, 23 gentle, and self-controlled. There is no law against behaving in any of these ways. 24 And because we belong to Christ Jesus, we have killed our selfish feelings and desires. 25 God's Spirit has given us life, and so we should follow the Spirit. 26 But don't be conceited or make others jealous by claiming to be better than they are.

God doesn't want people to be conceited and certainly are no better than others .. The difference (other than they have God's Holy Spirit within) is that they are Forgiven.

For those that will try and write away or say well that's just your experience and that's what it is an experience, not real. That's my statement of fact that is factual to me. I realize that there are many things in life that appear real but aren't .. Chris Angel and David Blane both do amazing things that appear legit and real and I can't explain them but I have no doubts about God therefore when I make dogmatic statements I try and make those regarding myself and not say that others have to have the exact same experience but I bet that there are plenty of other Christians that will and can confirm that which I've stated about the presence of God's Holy Spirit being totally demonstrative and undeniable.

gb,

"The presence of the Holy Spirit". That's saying a lot.

If there is a Holy Spirit, why doesn't everyone acknowledge it? We all recognize gravity and mass. Why not something much more important?

By saying that, you presume to know something many of us do not. You presume to have a sense of reality that I do not.

I don't believe you do. I think what is much more likely is that you have talked yourself into a fiction. We all know that is possible. We all do not know, as a matter of fact, that God exists and is in touch with us.

If you were to tell me that the notion of god is an allegory, that you behave AS IF he were real, OK, I can respect that. But if you tell me that you have special knowledge of a god that I am incapable of knowing, then I must call BS. I don't think you have a sixth sense, and I don't believe we can achieve one by asking for it from a god who, by definition, is unknown to us.

DF

quote:

Originally posted by gbrk:
Let me just insert this, and yes it's my own beliefs. It's long but by necessity in order to add supporting scriptures to explain.

Please don't take offence to the snippage, it was for the sake of brevity. i saw no reason to quote your entire post just to say:

Well said sir. excellent post.
very scriptual, but not preachy, if that makes sense?

quote:

Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
gb,

"The presence of the Holy Spirit". That's saying a lot.

If there is a Holy Spirit, why doesn't everyone acknowledge it? We all recognize gravity and mass. Why not something much more important?

By saying that, you presume to know something many of us do not. You presume to have a sense of reality that I do not.

I don't believe you do. I think what is much more likely is that you have talked yourself into a fiction. We all know that is possible. We all do not know, as a matter of fact, that God exists and is in touch with us.

If you were to tell me that the notion of god is an allegory, that you behave AS IF he were real, OK, I can respect that. But if you tell me that you have special knowledge of a god that I am incapable of knowing, then I must call BS. I don't think you have a sixth sense, and I don't believe we can achieve one by asking for it from a god who, by definition, is unknown to us.

DF

Well.
i'm going to straight up say I Don't Know.

i'm also going to say, in speculation and guessing, that to me what makes sence is that you DO have access to to the same sense of reality, but that you have not.. well.. Accessed it yet.

it's not as simple as looking up and saying "Ok, Here i am, hit me!"

the book says.. someplace... " Seek, and ye shall find."

i think that is a neccessary step. you can't just say, " ok, i want to know calculus and Shaiolin Kung-Fu" and then suddenly know it.
you have to study and study for years.

i'm not saying it takes years, but it's not just click, boom, "hiyas, i'm the holy spirit, here's a my new CD, give it a listen. it's got a great beat and you can dance to it."

so maybe the problem is that you haven't spent enough effort sincerely seeking it. Just because you have not felt it, does not mean that you can't, or won't.

back when i was still wavering, it was the word ' sincerely ' that always tripped me up. how does one sincerely seek something while they are still skeptical? i felt a bit foolish most of the time - like i was looking for something i didn't think i'd find, and yet i kept looking.

unfortunatly, that's one that i cannot answer. i suspect the answer is different for each of us.
which brings us back to me saying, I Don't Know.

I'm not a biblical scholar.
i doubt i've provided you with " An Answer".
but i do hope i've at least given you something to think about.

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:
I know.. i understand your point, bill, but i disagree with you. to you, it proves everything, because you already believe. to me, it proves nothing, because i think it's mostly a lie.

Hi Nagel,

Let's get this straight. You have told us that you are a Christian believer. And, now you tell us that the Bible, the Written Word of God, is a lie?

My Friend, there is definitely something wrong with that picture.

Are you a Christian believer? And, if so, how can you say the Bible which God authored -- is a LIE?

This deeply concerns me, my Friend. Who and what do you believe?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

In response to the title of this thread:

I believe (so far) that the concept of a central deity that rules all that exists is outdated, unscientific, and completely backwards. Religion is a crutch for weak minded people who can't think for themselves. My opinion is that it is an illogical belief based on a groundless hope.

quote:

Originally posted by Road Puppy:
In response to the title of this thread:

I believe (so far) that the concept of a central deity that rules all that exists is outdated, unscientific, and completely backwards. Religion is a crutch for weak minded people who can't think for themselves. My opinion is that it is an illogical belief based on a groundless hope.

Hi Puppy,

My Friend, that is the beauty of our God -- He gives everyone the "free will" to choose your own eternal home. You are free do deny Him, to defame His name, to attack Him, to do just about anything you want.

The only thing you cannot do -- is avoid having to stand before Him one day in judgment. Everyone MUST stand before Him in judgment.

And, I am sure He will be amused when you tell Him that He is, "outdated, unscientific, and completely backwards."

I am sure He will get quite a chuckle out of this -- just before YOU are sent to your eternal home. When that happens; take a good look at Him, for that will be the last time you will see Him. From that point on, your landlord will be Mr. Satan.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Cute cartoon. You slay me, Bill.. You're pathetic, but you're funny.

Got it all figured out at 50, thereabouts, did ya?

What? Did you think your god wasn't paying attention to you BEFORE you realized you were getting old and scared by your own mortality? BEFORE you decided late in life that you wanted to get into heaven? What? Was he slEEPING?
"Once saved-Always saved." Of COURSE you and people like you want THAT particular guarantee! How CONVENIENT!

Like a lot of the "cash and carry" Catholics who only attend church on Christmas and Easter-I don't really think it counts if you're just doing it at the last minute for show.

Here's a thought. What if it's YOU that's gonna be in for a big surprise? You've spent an awful lotta time telling me how wrong I am and that the earth is flat and the sky is yellow and that I'm gonna burn in hell. PffT! It's YOUR hell, YOU burn in it.

What if....You're all wrong?

Christian means Christ-like. It's not that complicated. Jesus said if you love God and love others, the rest works itself out naturally. Accept Christ as Lord and Savior of your life and He is.

Mankind make it more complicated, add to and take away from the message of reconciliation. It's hard for us to accept that since we cannot get to Heaven on our own that someone else took care of it for us. We keep trying to DO something to get there rather than just accept the gift offered us. Silly humans.

Hi Puppy,

You tell me, "Got it all figured out at 50, or thereabouts, did you? What? Did you think your God wasn't paying attention to you BEFORE you realized you were getting old and scared by your own mortality? BEFORE you decided, late in life, that you wanted to get into heaven? What? Was He sleeping?"

FIFTY IS OLD? Why, a fifty year old is still a youngster! When I was fifty I worried about nothing; hardly had enough sense to come in out of the rain. But, praise God -- I was smart enough to recognize the truth of God when a very Godly pastor led me to the foot of the cross. Praise God for that man; for he truly pointed me in the right direction.

No, God is never sleeping. However, many of us are -- for much of our lives. And, I suspect that YOU still have the comforter pulled up over your head -- to keep out the light. Or, I should say, to keep out the LIGHT, the Light of the world, Jesus Christ.

Next, you arrogantly declare, "'Once saved - Always saved.' Of COURSE you and people like you want THAT particular guarantee! How CONVENIENT!"

Yes, we Christian believers do want that to be true. And, praise God, the Bible assures us that this is true. It tells us in John 10:27-30, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. "I and the Father are one."

Convenient? I guess you could call it that. Yet, we Christians call it "eternal security."

Then, you tell us, "Like a lot of the 'cash and carry' Catholics who only attend church on Christmas and Easter."

True, there are a lot of folks -- both Roman Catholic and Protestant -- who only show up at church on Christmas and Easter. There are a lot from both groups who only wear the Christian hat for social reasons, or business reasons, or to make themselves feel good. Yet, when they leave the church, they leave God sitting in the pew.

However, there are billions of solid, devout Christians who truly are Christ Followers.

You say, "I don't really think it counts if you're just doing it at the last minute for show."

Yes, it counts. Regardless of when a person finally repents, turns from following the world, and turns to follow Jesus Christ -- that person is just as saved as the person who became a Christian young in life.

If you will read Matthew 20:1-16, Jesus is teaching in the parable of the landowner who goes out in the morning and hires laborers to work in his vineyard. He promises them one denarius for their work. In mid-day, he brings in more laborers; and later in the day, he brings in even more. At the end of the day, he pays each laborer, regardless of how many hours they worked, one denarius for their labor. Those who worked since morning were upset that those who worked only a couple of hours were paid the same as they who had worked all day.

The landowner told them, "Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree to work for me for a denarius? Can I not be generous with others if I want? Or, are you angry because I am generous? Take what is yours and go your way."

God, Jesus Christ, promises eternal life for ALL who will, by grace, through faith -- believe and receive the "free gift" He "paid in full" on the cross -- "paid in full" by His blood. So, if He wants to give eternal life to those who come at the last minute; we should not be upset -- we should be celebrating with Him that they have finally come.

Yet, there is a definite danger in waiting until the last minute to follow Jesus Christ. We never know which breath will be our last. And, everyone who breathes that last breath in this mortal life without believing and receiving Jesus Christ -- will have no second chance. Once a person dies without Jesus Christ -- his/her fate is sealed. That person will go into eternity without God and will forever, eternally, live outside the presence of God. What is outside the presence of God in eternity? Only hell. That is the danger of waiting too long.

But, yes, Puppy, even those who get in under the gun; before that last breath -- will be saved and spend eternity with God.

Finally, you challenge, "Here's a thought. What if it's YOU that's gonna be in for a big surprise? You've spent an awful lot of time telling me how wrong I am and that the earth is flat and the sky is yellow and that I'm gonna burn in hell. It's YOUR hell, YOU burn in it. What if....You're all wrong?

That is a valid question. What if, after living the life of a Christian -- I find that God truly does not exist and I have been wrong all this time? Well, even in that dire situation -- there is a silver lining. Living as a Christian believer for the last 22 plus years -- I have been happier than I was before becoming a Christian; I have lived a more productive life since becoming a Christian; and, I have lived a healthier life since becoming a Christian. So, if I am wrong -- it has been a happy, healthy, productive life and I have no regrets for the last 22 plus years of my life. Nor for all the years still to come which the God I serve will give me to serve Him.

But, what if I am right, that there truly is a God -- and you are wrong? I will for sure spend eternity with God because I believed and received Him. And, you will spend eternity with Satan because you continued to deny God. Is that really a good gamble?

No, my Friend, it is not MY hell. It is the eternal dwelling place God created for Lucifer/Satan and his demonic angels. But, He also made it big enough to accommodate all of Satan's mortal followers. But, my Friend, that is one reservation you do not want to keep.

Puppy, what if "YOU" are wrong?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:


Puppy, what if "YOU" are wrong?

If I'm wrong, I'll bring the beer cause it sounds like it'd be one helluva party.

quote:

Originally posted by Road Puppy:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Puppy, what if "YOU" are wrong?

If I'm wrong, I'll bring the beer cause it sounds like it'd be one helluva party.

Hi Puppy,

Bring lots of ice and your summer cloths, too -- for it will also be very hot.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill

quote:

Posted Jun 8, 10:25 PM Hide Post
gb,

"The presence of the Holy Spirit". That's saying a lot.

If there is a Holy Spirit, why doesn't everyone acknowledge it? We all recognize gravity and mass. Why not something much more important?

By saying that, you presume to know something many of us do not. You presume to have a sense of reality that I do not.

Look I stated what I (myself) consider to define a "Christian" and then I submitted ( on this RELIGION Forum ) scripture references which support the statements I made. You state "why doesn't everyone acknowledge it"?

Without repeating all the scripture references if you read them you will basically see I believe the presence of the Holy Spirit of God within a body to be God's gift, His evidence, that a person is truly a Christian, having believed in and accepted Christ. The simple answer to your question is .. Not everyone is a Christian, not everyone has met the Scriptural requirements that God has established to receive forgiveness of sins and justification before Him and due to their Acceptance of Christ received the Gift of God's Holy Spirit. God's Holy Spirit is how God communicates with His believers, His Saints, and visa-versa.

Romans 8:9-11 (CEV)
9 You are no longer ruled by your desires, but by God's Spirit, who lives in you. People who don't have the Spirit of Christ in them don't belong to him.
10 But Christ lives in you. So you are alive because God has accepted you, even though your bodies must die because of your sins.
11 Yet God raised Jesus to life! God's Spirit now lives in you, and he will raise you to life by his Spirit.

also

Romans 8:16-17 (CEV)
16 God's Spirit makes us sure that we are his children.
17 His Spirit lets us know that together with Christ we will be given what God has promised. We will also share in the glory of Christ, because we have suffered with him.

finally

Romans 8:26-28 (Contemporary English Version) 26 In certain ways we are weak, but the Spirit is here to help us. For example, when we don't know what to pray for, the Spirit prays for us in ways that cannot be put into words. 27 All of our thoughts are known to God. He can understand what is in the mind of the Spirit, as the Spirit prays for God's people. 28 We know that God is always at work for the good of everyone who loves him. They are the ones God has chosen for his purpose,

God's Spirit is dwelling within a Christian, believers, life and body, along with the persons Spirit for many reasons but two main are to Guarantee that persons eternal state (salvation) prove that God is who He says He is (which is why we need no physical proof for this transcends the physical need) and also the Holy Spirit is there to change that individual, their outlook, their personality, their whole being in ways only God can do. Galatians 5:22 starts describing some of the things that God's Holy Spirit does for the Christian. Those that aren't a Christian, those that are non-believers, have never accepted God's invitation naturally don't know the Holy Spirit, they don't know God.

I also make or have made no judgment against you or anyone else. You further say "By saying that, you presume to know something many of us do not. You presume to have a sense of reality that I do not." You are wrong in your accusation because I made a statement of my experience ( which you are so quickly and easily able to write off as somehow something I have convinced myself of or as you say "talked myself into" just because you don't recognize that which I have described doesn't mean somehow I imagined it. ) and in doing so I never said you, nor anyone else didn't know for that is your judgment (about your own self). I am not here to judge anyone's state with regard to God or Christ. I do believe that God's Gift (His Holy Spirit) is given by God to whom God will. How can one presume that God would share such a gift with someone that constantly denies Him or Christ and then expect God's blessings?

I fully believe God's gift (salvation) is open to anyone and everyone however I also believe that the Bible says and that Scripture backs up that God must "enable" or call a person. If a person banks on waiting until they draw their last breath to say "okay God I believe now save me" then that person will have missed their opportunity.

Every person that wants to know God that desires Salvation or doesn't know about their eternal state should read the following Scripture reference.

John 6:63-65 (CEV) 63 The Spirit is the one who gives life! Human strength can do nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are from that life-giving Spirit. 64 But some of you refuse to have faith in me." Jesus said this, because from the beginning he knew who would have faith in him. He also knew which one would betray him. 65 Then Jesus said, "You cannot come to me, unless the Father makes you want to come. That is why I have told these things to all of you."

The time to respond to God is when God communicates with the individual for there is no Guarantee or promise that second chances, third chances, or fourth chances will be given. Salvation is open to all and God is there for those that honestly seek Him but His Communication, His Call, the Conviction which is where God enables us to realize our Spiritual condition and opens salvation is the ONLY time that God reveals Himself to a person that is "Lost" or unbelieving and then only is the best evidence that people seek that God is who He is.

It's so typical when you, or anyone else, who refutes God, refuses God, rebels against God and everything Spiritual then when you don't have experiences that other professed Christian believers profess have or you don't have the same experiences you look to justify the lack of those feelings/experiences by trying to say that those that have those experiences and relation with God, Christians, somehow convince themselves of it, that they are imaginary.


Regarding Salvation
Ephesians 2:4-10 (CEV)
4 But God was merciful! We were dead because of our sins, but God loved us so much that he made us alive with Christ, and God's wonderful kindness is what saves you.
5
6 God raised us from death to life with Christ Jesus, and he has given us a place beside Christ in heaven.
7 God did this so that in the future world he could show how truly good and kind he is to us because of what Christ Jesus has done.
8 You were saved by faith in God, who treats us much better than we deserve. This is God's gift to you, and not anything you have done on your own.
9 It isn't something you have earned, so there is nothing you can brag about.
10 God planned for us to do good things and to live as he has always wanted us to live. That's why he sent Christ to make us what we are.

If you or anyone else chooses not to believe what I've said I have no problem with that but I do have a problem when someone that doesn't have the same experience or cannot relate to it tries to justify their lack of those experiences by saying I am somehow imagining it or convincing myself of something that isn't there. Truth is there may be a very legitimate reason you aren't experiencing it but that is for you to decide and not for me to judge or presume as you seem to believe I do.

quote:

Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
gb, "The presence of the Holy Spirit". That's saying a lot. If there is a Holy Spirit, why doesn't everyone acknowledge it? We all recognize gravity and mass. Why not something much more important? By saying that, you presume to know something many of us do not. You presume to have a sense of reality that I do not. DF

Hi all,

I do think our Friend, Billy Bob, has made a Freudian Slip. If you will notice, out of habit, he signed this post with the initials "DF."

Yes, the truth has a way of slipping out when we are not careful.

Now, my Friend, Deep, regarding your question about the "presence of the Holy Spirit" -- the reason you do not sense His presence is because you do not believe in God. Why should you expect to sense the presence of a God you deny exists? Wouldn't that seem a bit strange to you -- this God does not exist -- yet you sense His presence?

Until one is a Christian believer, that person cannot sense the presence of the Holy Spirit -- for the Holy Spirit is not within this person. However, EVERY Christian believer will sense His presence -- for He resides within us.

Would you expect a person who had been physically blind all his life -- to understand the beauty of a sunset? Of course not. You can tell the person about the beauty; but, he really cannot understand nor really appreciate what he cannot see.

In the same way, a person who is spiritually blind -- cannot see or sense the presence of the Holy Spirit. Yet, when your spiritual eyes are opened -- WOW! You sense Him big time!

By the way, now I can officially say it: WELCOME BACK, DEEP!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

That's all it takes to fool Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by Road Puppy:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Puppy, what if "YOU" are wrong?

If I'm wrong, I'll bring the beer cause it sounds like it'd be one helluva party.

Hi Puppy,

Bring lots of ice and your summer cloths, too -- for it will also be very hot.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill

Heh. Hey Smacky... Remember when I said I pay attention? Do ya?

Well, apparently you weren't. Maybe heat is a curse to some of you Alabama dirt-farmers, but like I said a long time ago (check your notes-it's OK..) I'm almost Canadian. Y'know, "The Great White North", I have lived in the cold and the dark for most of my life. "Hot" doesn't scare me, in fact I welcome it.

I've always figured that if there IS a hell-I am firmly convinced that it would be a very cold place.
Judging by the attitudes of some of the "righteous Christian believers"-with you in the lead-something tells me I'm gonna have a lotta company when I get there.

I'll make sure to keep my scoot polished. You'll hear me comin'.

Well, while you're gloating about how you once again showed me and you're chlidish little snoopy cartoon is joyously jumping, bear this in mind:

I've only been in this forum for a little while-but I *MAY* have just done what (from what I can observe) nobody else on this forum has been able to do.....

I got you to say "What if......."

Have a blinkered day.

RP

Sorry but I want to throw my 2 cents in here. I am a Christian, and I respectfully disagree with you Bill. Those walls of your church do not make you or any of your congregation Christians. As you yourself pointed out you have networkers, socialites, thumpers and a host of others that are there for the wrong reasons. Are you hoping that they will some day “Get It”? Or are you preaching to them the most?

I have attended Baptist, Methodist, Church of Christ, Catholic and Church of God churches. All have these types and some even worst. I have watched as these “Christians” have perverted the meaning of Christ and looked down their noses as the true Christians screamed to the top of their lungs in outrage at their decisions that the church should go. But all for naught, as the church embraced these decisions and the ones that actually tried to be “Christ like” left to find others of like mind.

I am not going to quote scriptures or try to impose my understanding of the bible on anyone here. All should read the bible and draw their conclusions as to the belief of God and his desires for each of us.

I will say that I believe God is love, compassion, understanding and strength. I believe God delights in a person’s true character and that character truly shines when it is unselfish, unbridled and caring for everyone (sinners and saints alike).

OV2's gotta goodly point, there BeeG.

Standing in a church does not make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by DustinSmith:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
As a matter of fact, the Bible covers just about any need you might have.

You should get one and study it. You will be amazed at how smart God really is!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day, Bill

Bill,

I would estimate that for every one person you've brought to religion, you've driven away 100. Dustin

Hi Dustin,

I must ask: how would you know? I doubt you have ever been close enough to a church to see if anyone is coming or going. Just a thought.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

That was a little uncalled for.

quote:

Originally posted by Road Puppy:
Standing in a church does not make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

That is the first statement that you have ever made that I actually agree with. Very true!

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by Road Puppy:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Puppy, what if "YOU" are wrong?

If I'm wrong, I'll bring the beer cause it sounds like it'd be one helluva party.

Hi Puppy,

Bring lots of ice and your summer cloths, too -- for it will also be very hot.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill

I really dont think that you should be making light of that situation. You, as I both know that hell is a real place...and honestly, it is a scary place. Please, oh please, never ever make jokes about something so critical. K? Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by IamShouting!:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by Road Puppy:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Puppy, what if "YOU" are wrong?

If I'm wrong, I'll bring the beer cause it sounds like it'd be one helluva party.

Hi Puppy,

Bring lots of ice and your summer cloths, too -- for it will also be very hot.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill

I really dont think that you should be making light of that situation. You, as I both know that hell is a real place...and honestly, it is a scary place. Please, oh please, never ever make jokes about something so critical. K? Thanks!

Oh you been to hell, have ya? BOTH of ya? So you KNOW it's a scary place?

*facepalm*

I wonder if you spend the REST of your day preaching tolerance...

Talk about forcing your will on somebody...
Ya oughtta be careful, methinks...Bill will ostracize you from his club talkin' to him that way.

quote:

Originally posted by Road Puppy:

quote:

Originally posted by IamShouting!:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by Road Puppy:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Puppy, what if "YOU" are wrong?

If I'm wrong, I'll bring the beer cause it sounds like it'd be one helluva party.

Hi Puppy,

Bring lots of ice and your summer cloths, too -- for it will also be very hot.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill

I really dont think that you should be making light of that situation. You, as I both know that hell is a real place...and honestly, it is a scary place. Please, oh please, never ever make jokes about something so critical. K? Thanks!

I wonder if you spend the REST of your day preaching tolerance...

Talk about forcing your will on somebody...
Ya oughtta be careful, methinks...Bill will ostracize you from his club talkin' to him that way.

Taking up for Bill now? Wow! Never saw that one coming!

HEH Nope, I misfired and hit the POST button before I had typed my reply. LOL.

I'm not above stepping on my fandango every so often. Reread it-I fixed it.

Oh, I fgorgot..(fogrot? Fgorgot? Hm... My keyboard must be on crack today.."Forgot."

Brick walls aren't all that good with their fingers.

Here. Even though I have a personal "no double-post" policy, I'm reposting what I fixed up there ^ down here again. Just in case yer havin' trouble figuring out where the "scroll back up" button is.

Once again:

quote:

Oh you been to hell, have ya? BOTH of ya? So you KNOW it's a scary place?

*facepalm*

I wonder if you spend the REST of your day preaching tolerance...

Talk about forcing your will on somebody...
Ya oughtta be careful, methinks...Bill will ostracize you from his club talkin' to him that way.

quote:

Originally posted by IamShouting!:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by Road Puppy:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Puppy, what if "YOU" are wrong?

If I'm wrong, I'll bring the beer cause it sounds like it'd be one helluva party.

Hi Puppy,

Bring lots of ice and your summer cloths, too -- for it will also be very hot.

Y'all come back now, ya heah? Bill

I really don't think that you should be making light of that situation. You, as I both know that hell is a real place...and honestly, it is a scary place. Please, oh please, never ever make jokes about something so critical. K? Thanks!

Hi Shouting,

I am not really trying to make jokes about hell. However, when feeding birds, I use seed. When feeding a horse, I will bring hay or oats. And, when feeding a child, we bring Pablum, etc.

I would never bring a nice, rare prime rib steak to an infant since he would not know what to do with it anyway. Probably just sit on it.

And, with our Friend, Puppy, all he can understand are his own "cutesy" -- and very often crude, remarks.

With him, heaven and hell are most likely only a show on MTV. So, we give him his Pablum, pat him on the head, and put him back in his crib. That is all I was doing.

Sorry if I offended you.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Heh. For somebody who dismisses me so quickly, you sure do seem to spend an awful lotta time countering me and trying to oh, I dunno...'hurt my feelings' instead of tending to your (imaginary, I'm guessing) flock. It must be imaginary, 'cause if you had a real one you'd be in that big studio with the TV cameras. You'd have your own website for your ministry.

No, You wouldn't have to try to convert everybody on a small town newspaper forum. You'd have plenty of willing sheep coming to you. (Especially out in Cali, where...Oh I dunno....ANYBODY can get on TV. You're not even on any of the loser public access cable channels out there.)

Gee, Bill. To me, that kinda looks like what the kids nowadays call 'Epic Fail."

Have a blinkered day


"Hmmm. DO YOU THINK?" (No, I really mean that. DO YOU THINK!?)


Silly Rabbi, Kicks are for Trids.