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To quote the great Slim Pickens in "Blazing Saddles": I am depressed.

On one hand, we have a Social Democrat whose answer to government overspending is to increase it. This retard will raise taxes in an attempt to raise more money, ignorant of the knowledge gained in the last 30 years about taxing the productive into inactivity.

On the other hand, we have another reason-deficient Republican whose economics might be a little more correct, but whose social stances are strictly 1855.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9izhjnaLa3M


I am sick of voting for the lesser of two evils. It's still evil. Could Bob Barr, the Libertarian Party candidate be the right choice?

Here's one of his issue points:

"Government spending at all levels is out of control. Most Americans understand the problem of “earmarks,” commonly used by pork-minded congressmen to buy votes. But while earmarks are an outrageous abuse of the taxpayer’s money, they account for a very small percentage of federal spending. Over the past decade, total government spending (state, local and federal) has increased from $2.9 trillion to an astonishing $5.1 trillion in 2008. The $3.1 trillion federal budget submitted by President Bush for next year was greater than the combined 1998 spending of the federal government, all 50 states and over 87,000 local governments."


http://www.bobbarr2008.com/

Wasted vote? Perhaps perpetuating the poisonous Two Party System is the real poison. Everyone complains about the Two Party system, no one does anything about it, or at least hasn't since Ross Perot.

DF
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I agree, Bob Barr is closer to my political views than McCain or Obama. The problem is I'm afraid that if too many disenfranchised Republicans vote for him, it will allow Obama to sneak into the White House.

As much as I agree with Barr on many issues, I'm going to hold my nose and vote McCain. The thought of someone as far left and inexperienced as Obama in the White House is just too scary for me.
If these were the 1990's Deep Fat, I would be with you. The times are different now. During the 90's the Soviet empire imploded and with the Peace Dividend and a seemingly moderate Southern Democrat it would be reasonable to go Libertarian. Now we have a proven leftist Democrat and a competitive world economy with competitive demands for resources. We need someone who has the understanding of capitalism to know the best way to grow an economy is to stop putting up roadblocks to commerce and to tear down impediments to business.
Also there is a sort of similarity to the 1930's when Fascists and Marxists were squabbling over which group had the best socialist system. Now it's Muslim extremists of Shiite and Sunni sects deciding the proper way to disembowel infidels. We need a president who is capable of acting as a Commander-in-Chief and not a surrendering apeasser with the rise of militant Islam, the increasing Chinese military capability, and other threats. So yes, I agree there are better people than McCain, but this is not the time to allow the greater of evils to take office.
Last edited by Flatus the Ancient
Hi Deep,

For the most part I agree with you (we can't keep doing this or folks will start to talk) -- Obama is a total disaster waiting to happen. And McCain was not my first choice in the Republican party -- but, he is what we have, so we need to support him.

If we will all think back to the 1992 presidential race; we had Clinton on the Dem ticket, Bush on the Rep ticket, and Ross Perot as an Independent. With all of Perot's money -- all he was able to do was to siphon off enough votes from Bush to allow "Cigar Bill" Clinton to win. Perot had some great ideas; but did not have the clout to win. All he could do was muddy the water enough to allow Clinton to win. We must learn from such mistakes.

Bob Barr sounds like a solid guy; but, in this race he would be just another Ross Perot -- without the Perot fortune behind him. If Barr is seriously pushed as an Independent candidate -- we will have an Osama Obama White House.

Obama is too much the Social Programs Far Left Liberal. As I said in another post, he would make FDR look like a piker with the new Obama welfare state.

FDR's social programs are very much like trade unions. At the time, it was needed -- but, somehow they forgot to turn off the welfare spigot. In the early 1900s unions were needed to get fair wages and fair working conditions for employees. But, like a tax, once imposed, it never dies -- only grows and grows like a tumor. The same is true of unions today; their time has passed; but they will never die because when the people at the top of the pyramid get power -- they will fight to the death to keep it.

The same with FDRs social programs in the 1930s. They, along with World War 2, pulled America out of the depression. But, once again, like taxes -- it never dies. If we recall the old maxim: "Give a man a fish and he will want two tomorrow. Teach the man to fish and he can supply his own fish tomorrow." Well, America's Liberal politicians have been so busy giving folks fish; they have no time to teach them to fish. We just keep giving and giving and giving; then we bring in 12 million illegal aliens and give to them also. The well has to run dry some day -- and it appears the well is looking pretty dusty right now.

We cannot gamble on an unknown Bob Barr in this election; we cannot gamble that it will split the conservative vote and hand the country over to Obama.

I, for one, will vote for John McCain -- for even though I do not agree with his immigration policies; I do agree with his position on most other issues important to America and to my family.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net

Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!

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quote:
Originally posted by slice:
There is No third choice, McCain is the only choice we have.


True. If you're looking to continue the misguided war in Iraq, the erosion of our standing in the international community, giving up more civil liberties, and the rest of the Bush Administrations failed policies, then I agree. The only choice is McCain.
I've voted defensively for the past two elections, and it has been a fool's errand.

I might vote for Barr anyway. So what if it is a vote taken away from McCain?

Will McCain curb federal spending?

No.

Will McCain discourage illegal immigration?

No.

Will McCain, at his age, look to the long-term implications of runaway Federal spending?

Hell, no.

I'm afraid that the only salvation of our country will come after we suffer a disastrous failure of economics and educational ability. Obama will hasten this failure, by rewarding the policies that lead to it.

McCain might only delay the almost inevitable failure.

Bring it on.

DF
I am sick of voting for the lesser of two evils. It's still evil. Could Bob Barr, the Libertarian Party candidate be the right choice?

The republican party voted Barr out of office in Atlanta,Ga. Bob Barr was against Bush's patriot act. Are you right wingers sure you would want someone like Bob, that is so against Bush's patriot act? I guess better him than that wife cheater McCain huh?
Deep Fat, there's several problems with your thinking; there are these people called Representatives and Senators. It is their job to craft laws and budgets and if enough of them can get together, they can overide vetoes. We voters tend to think of presidents as demigods or demons and then credit or blame them for everything that works or fails. There are 535 other problems that need to be addressed by the voters before things will change.
quote:
I'm afraid that the only salvation of our country will come after we suffer a disastrous failure of economics and educational ability. Obama will hasten this failure, by rewarding the policies that lead to it.

McCain might only delay the almost inevitable failure.

Bring it on.



I would rather delay the inevitable than slam the gas towards it. McCain is going to f things up, that's a given. Obama's inexperience and socialist policies could be too much to overcome. I would rather hang on for another 4 years and try again rather than letting our country go to ruin.

I think most people are fed up with both parties. Ron Paul and Bob Barr are drawing more attention towards Libertarian. People are starting to identify more with their ideals than the other two parties. So I hope the next 4 years will wake people up enough to support a third party, it's really the only way we can get back on the right track.
quote:
Originally posted by Flatus the Ancient:
Deep Fat, there's several problems with your thinking; there are these people called Representatives and Senators. It is their job to craft laws and budgets and if enough of them can get together, they can overide vetoes. We voters tend to think of presidents as demigods or demons and then credit or blame them for everything that works or fails. There are 535 other problems that need to be addressed by the voters before things will change.


True.

Could we at least hope for gridlock? It is one of the best possible scenarios - it slows borrowing and spending!

LOL
The "Congress shall make no law" ought to be taken to heart much of the time!

It is time for a caretaker Congress and Presidency until the parties can realign and a lot of thought gone into the solutions we are facing: energy, an end to military adventure, and a reclaiming of virtue in the public forum.

People ought to read again their Paine, Jefferson, and Madison and study the Enlightenment sages more than play gotcha in this polarized infotainment world in which we live. Reject identity politics, reject bigotry and discrimination and try not to do what you would not want done to you and the world would be a much better place. Even here in the Most Serene Christian Republic of Alabamastan.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
Flattie,

You do have a point.

Even though Congress has an even lower approval than the Prez, seems almost everyone in this country thinks HIS congressman is OK.

The Prez leads the country, and his economic and fiscal opinions carry much weight.

DF


GWB's biggest ecconomic problem is that he had too much party loyalty when Republicans held Congress. He was unwilling to fight his own party on spending. He would tell them "don't do it" but then wouldn't veto bloated spending bills when they came to his desk.

Republicans cost themselves control of Congress by leaving their conservative roots. The one thing you have to give McCain credit for is that he fights the whole "earmark" BS. I believe that is one way he would help cut spending. I wish the president had the line item veto. That would put a quick stop to the pork earmarks.
Reality check time! I remember an occasion at the start of 666's administration. Ronnie Flippo was on the floor of the House of Representatives berating "Supply Side Economics" and he got a phone call from a Reagan cabinet member and instantaneously became a believer. The taste of good fatty pork promptly changed his mind. Unfortunately some people have to be bought to get things done. Until 535 people are replaced I'm afraid the old methods will have to continue to get legislation and budgets passed.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
I've voted defensively for the past two elections, and it has been a fool's errand.

I might vote for Barr anyway. So what if it is a vote taken away from McCain?

Will McCain curb federal spending?

No.

Will McCain discourage illegal immigration?

No.

Will McCain, at his age, look to the long-term implications of runaway Federal spending?

Hell, no.

I'm afraid that the only salvation of our country will come after we suffer a disastrous failure of economics and educational ability. Obama will hasten this failure, by rewarding the policies that lead to it.

McCain might only delay the almost inevitable failure.

Bring it on.

DF


Well said, DF. If a vote for Barr siphons off a vote from McCain, so be it. But why only McCain? Why couldn't a vote for Barr siphon off a vote from Obama? The Libertarian Party is NOT simply Republican-light. Their platform speaks to ALL, conservatives and liberals, Democrats and Republicans. It speaks of personal liberty and privacy, environmental responsibility, internal security and individual rights. Obama keeps pressing his theme of change. Change FROM what? Change TO what? Voting for the Dems is no change. Voting for the Republicans is no change. It's the same-old, same-old. Same tired, worn-out party lines. Same wasted time in Congress, both sides stalemated by gridlock and an insane inability to listen to other points of view. They're two sides of the same coin. If Obama is elected and ushers in 8-12 years of a Democratic-led executive branch, what do you think the message of the Republicans will be? CHANGE! It's as if they are saying that we have to choose between apple or cherry pie, and no other. Frankly, I'm sick of both of those flavors. Give Me Pumpkin!

Now, I'm sure that there will be those who will bash me and my point of view, as that seems to be a big theme on these boards. It's a major reason why I very seldom post anything, because most of the time, it's just not worth the hassle. However, this subject was just too compelling not to stick my neck out, in spite of the backlash that I anticipate.
If the candidates were Bush and Kerry again, I'd vote for Barr, easy choice. Obama is far more frightening than Kerry. McCain is far from the best choice, but he won't do anywhere near the damage Obama can with his inexperience and socialist mentality.

If Hillary was running, I would probably vote independent. With Obama, the risk is far too great. We simply cannot allow him in the White House, even if it means letting McCain in.

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